I’m thrilled to bring you the powerful, perspective-shifting stories of two recent participants in my Truce with Food group program. In this deep dive conversation, we explore the idea of restriction as a moving target, not just in our food struggles, but throughout our lives. This reframing of restriction is a concept we also work through—in a supportive group setting and with effective tools—in my upcoming Why Am I Eating This Now program that launches in September.
If the conversation in this episode ressonates with you, be sure to sign-up for the waitlist to be included in an upcoming FREE masterclass. In the Why Am I Eating This Now? program, we’ll also unpack why the same hard work and discipline that has gotten you so far in life often backfires when you try and apply it to your eating and what’s really happening when your food discipline disappears in the moments when you feel like you need it most. 12 WEEKS. MASTER COACHING. GROUP SUPPORT. Learn more
Among the Questions Explored:
- How can “being in choice” begin to loosen the feeling of restriction?
- What does the often repeated HALT tool miss?
- How can the TAIL tool help you begin to dampen food noise?
- How do our upbringing and early food struggles show up in our present-day lives?
- While this work isn’t therapy, how can it still be therapeutic?
- How can we begin repairing trust in ourselves for sustainable transformation?
- How can midlife be viewed as a deeper calling?
Connect with Insatiable & Ali:
Why Am I Eating This Now? Group Program opens in September! Why does the same hard work and discipline that has gotten you so far in life backfire when you try and apply it to your eating? Don’t settle for this “food thing” hanging over you any longer. Find out what’s really happening when your food discipline disappears in the moments when you feel like you need it most. 12 WEEKS. MASTER COACHING. GROUP SUPPORT. Learn more.
Call our new Insatiable hotline: (412) 475-8006. Click here to text (for privacy, we only see the last 4 digits of your phone number) and won’t be able to text back. Please don’t delete prepopulated numbers as that identifies your message is meant for Insatiable ).
Transcript
Ali Shapiro [00:00:06]:
Hey, insatiable listeners. So today, this episode, where I have 2 of my clients on. It was so fun to get to be with them. We’re gonna cover the topic of restriction. Okay? And this is a key idea that I cover in my group programs. You will hear my clients refer to Truth With Food, which is one of my signature programs, and that’s the program they’re in. But we also get into this key concept of restriction in Why Am I Eating This Now, which is my other main group program that we’ll be launching in September. So if you hear a client when you hear Tiffany and Jackie talking about Truth With Food, also know that this idea of restriction is also what we talk about in Why Am I Eating This Now? And if you’re interested in getting on the wait list for Why Am I Doing This Now, you can go there will be a link in the show notes to the Why Am I Doing This Now live group program, and you’ll be the first to know about the free master class that I’m offering and all the launch details.
Ali Shapiro [00:01:10]:
So check it out. It is a great appetizer into my work. So the goal of this episode is to reframe restriction. Okay? And we’re in this current polarized cultural moment. And it’s not just around politics. It is around everything because polarization as a way of thinking is actually where we start developmentally as adults. And obviously I’ve talked about this in other episodes and it’s the basis of my worth is for us to move out of this polarization, not just around health, but it obviously trickles into other areas of your life. But in this current cultural moment, the polarization in health, there’s a lot of them, but the big one is diet culture, bad, anti diet culture, good.
Ali Shapiro [00:01:55]:
Right? That’s if you’re in a certain camp, which I, you know, I was in that camp for a long time. Not in that camp of anti diet culture good. Just meaning like, yeah, I agree that diet culture can be very, corrosive and all that stuff, but I think we’ve lost the plot of what actually diet culture means. So all of these conversations to me are very black and white thinking around restriction, especially. And in my opinion, both camps leave a lot to be desired. And in my opinion, both camps leave a lot to be desired. I don’t think there’s a lot of nuance. So we’re going to explore this concept of restriction as a moving target with 2 of my current group program clients.
Ali Shapiro [00:02:33]:
And I wanna give you a little bit of their bios before we get to the show, and you can fall in love with their stories as much as I have. So first up, we have Jackie who has lived 8 miles north of Boston in the same town for her whole life, 57 years. She said she’s been married for 32 years and she they her and her husband have 3 adult children, 23, 24, and 25. She’s been an executive assistant for 40 years, and she has a home design business on the side. And she shared that food and weight obsession have been with her since she was 14 years old. Where I was in relation to food and weight, she said, determined how I allowed myself to live. Right? Through working with Ali, I’m beginning to believe a truce with food is possible. So Tiffany Gagnon, who is our other guest, is a mother to 3 babes, artist, a chef in rural Vancouver Island as well.
Ali Shapiro [00:03:29]:
And Tiffany is on the other end of the mothering spectrum. She has 3 babies under 5, and we’ll talk about the restrictive sense that comes with that, in our conversation today. But she believes grass fed butter to be a prayer answered And she plays with words, paint, clay, and photography when life is especially spacious. And we’ll talk about part of her getting out of restriction is to make spaciousness an act of devotion. So I love that. So enjoy our conversation centered around restriction. And if you want to explore this and work on this, yourself, I hope you’ll join us in why am I eating this now? You can get on the wait list, which is in the show notes. You can also Google Ally Shapiro why am I eating this now live group program, That’s, the actual URL, and get on the waiting list, so that we can really make you start to feel, more free and less restricted emotionally, so we don’t take it out on food.
Ali Shapiro [00:04:32]:
Alright. Enjoy the show. Thank you, Jackie and Tiffany, so much for being here today. I just I’m so excited to have this conversation. I just I care about you both so much and love chatting with you. So thank you for being here.
Jacqui [00:04:46]:
Seeing you. Wonderful.
Tiffany [00:04:49]:
Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:04:52]:
Alright. So to ground our conversation today, I want us to start with how I define restriction because I looked it up in preparation for this. And when I looked up food restriction, they wrote, you know, food restriction is also known as dietary restriction. It’s when a person limits or changes what they eat for various reasons. These reasons can include health like allergies, intolerances, or medical conditions. So for listeners, like if you have Hashimoto’s and you need to restrict gluten, that would be considered food restriction. Religious beliefs or cultural practices, I think sometimes I forget about that. But, we have I know in the blue zone, 7th day Adventists are vegetarian.
Ali Shapiro [00:05:39]:
So under that definition, that would be considered a restrictive diet. And then lifestyle, social choices, health fads, or personal preferences. So this is kind of the Wikipedia general, definition. Something like reducing sugar, which drives appetite and cravings is then considered restrictive. It might be considered a health fat, a social choice, dieting, or cutting calories is restrictive and won’t inevitably lead to bingeing. So for me, and what’s been really instrumental in me changing my relationship to food is defining it much more broadly because feeling restricted from food, I found, isn’t really about only about food. I I define restriction as being out of choice. In other words, we feel restricted when we think, I should want to eat this and we don’t really want to, or I should do this and we don’t really want to.
Ali Shapiro [00:06:38]:
I have to eat this way or I have to do this. I must not eat this. I must not do this. Doctor Albert Ellis, who is big in, psychology research, calls it masturbation. I think that’s very memorable.
Tiffany [00:06:53]:
I must. I must.
Ali Shapiro [00:06:54]:
I have to. And, again, I think of it as beyond food, food and and other things, life. So being in choice is what removes this sense of restriction. It’s I want to want to be healthy, I want to want to do this, I want to want to respond this way. And so being in choice or not feeling restricted extends beyond our food choices. Our food choices are about one input or driver of this sense of restriction. And so, Jackie and Tiffany, I’m just curious how that resonates with you and and Jackie will start.
Jacqui [00:07:29]:
I remember vividly when, I learned or realized that I should restrict food in particular. And I remember it as such a heavy cloud feeling. And I I feel like depression started then. It was just this sinking. Like, oh my god, I’ve been doing this wrong all along and I need to, get food under control, but I have no idea how. So it was this double thing like, okay, I should I I should be doing this, but how do you do it? And and, you know, it just it just totally became this heavy weight that I dragged along. I was about 13, I might say. So, I mean, that’s when it started and it stayed with me forever.
Jacqui [00:08:28]:
Basically, I mean, there have been Certain points in my life where I didn’t feel that way. There there was a little bit more lightness around it. But, what the restriction did was just the opposite. Like you said, just it opened up that need or that hyper, you know, focus on wanting it. It did the exact opposite to what, you know, I thought it would do. And it became this forbidden thing. And, you know, really just became the focus of my life kind of in a in a background way too. You know, it wasn’t like I was constantly I was living too, but, you know, the restriction itself kind of just fed this, fed the compulsion that I had for wanting to to, you know, eat.
Jacqui [00:09:28]:
So that that’s any restriction for me has kind of done the opposite. It’s made me just hyper focused on what I’m not getting.
Ali Shapiro [00:09:41]:
Yeah. I’m curious. I think you said 2 really interesting things there. I mean, a lot of things, but how did you come to know that you should restrict? Like, what happened? How would Yeah.
Jacqui [00:09:53]:
Oh, boy. So it was summer. We were just talking about summer and how, you know, it’s kind of a hard season for me. And, you know, was just being with friends, you know, that preteen tight tight timeline. Maybe even 13, 14, but before that probably, but just the whole boys thing. And then, I had a really good friend. She’s still a good friend who was really restricting. And I thought, oh, well, she’s doing this.
Jacqui [00:10:27]:
I I might have to do this. And we were at a friend’s house, a boy who I just biggest crush of my life, and his mom put out these nice big cookies. And I went for 1 and my friend kicked me under the table. Like, what are you doing? You’re eating in front of a boy, you know? And I was, it was so it just stayed with me. I thought, okay. That, you know, I can’t do that ever again. And I didn’t for a long time. I I remember first dating my husband and I didn’t eat in front of him for a very long time, which is so strange.
Jacqui [00:11:09]:
But I think but also common. And, Yeah. That that time of my life, my mother was also at that point, restricting with her diet. I mean, in a very severe way, so that I saw it there. I saw it in my peers. I saw it at home. My dad started to say things around that time and and, you know, he I think it was more of his in a health standpoint for him to kind of just, give me little, you know, pieces of advice, but it was all coming in as okay. Food is not it’s not, safe anymore.
Jacqui [00:11:54]:
Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:11:55]:
I like it. It was interesting too how you said, like, it’s like the surprise of,
Jacqui [00:11:59]:
oh, I didn’t know this.
Ali Shapiro [00:12:01]:
Like, I didn’t know. Right? Like, oh, I didn’t know that I should be doing this. It then creates this sense of, I think, like, oh, a strategy of restriction because, like, I I feel like when we’re teenagers, like, and the boys and all that stuff, it’s like, oh, if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So then it’s like also like you’re getting this surround sound, but it’s like people aren’t just restricting food. It’s like even wanting to eat food in front of a boy is like, oh, that impulse. Right? It’s like, you know, eating and eating in front of boys. No, it shouldn’t. So it’s it becomes an overall strategy, I guess, is is what I think happens.
Jacqui [00:12:45]:
Yeah. Yeah. And that and then it becomes, you know, the physical focus. Okay. Well, that this is because I wanna be thin, you know, and anything other than thin is, is awful. And, and I was always heavier than my friends, but not physically different in even my, my kids. Their their weights are a lot higher than their peers, but they’re all I realize now it’s all muscle. I didn’t know that.
Jacqui [00:13:15]:
When I look at pictures, I think, oh my gosh, I was slim and healthy. But because I weighed more, I was instantly like, oof, you know, oh my gosh, a 130. That’s that’s gigantic because my friends were like 1, you know, 105. So the all the numbers and, that all came rushing in. And, you know, it’s so interesting. I remember a point where I and I said this to my friend’s mother because she she always had those, like, Woman’s Days magazine and the diet of the week. She was always on a diet. I I loved this woman.
Jacqui [00:13:52]:
She was like a second mother to me. And, I I remember saying to her, what if it’s not food that makes you gain weight? Like and I was young. I was probably 13 or 14. And she said, oh, only if, you know. And I thought, oh, yeah, that was that was a ridiculous statement. But honestly, I think it was like the last, you know, the last little message that I was trying to express from, okay, this something isn’t right about this, the restriction, something is made. I, you know, I look at that point now and I think, wow, I my inner self was trying to tell me that, okay, you don’t need to do this. This isn’t how this works.
Jacqui [00:14:39]:
But for, you know, just more shutting down what my inner self was trying to tell me, I think. Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:14:49]:
Well, and again, to your point, it’s like a surround sound, right? Like everyone, it’s coming from all angles and given our developmental trajectory, it’s like, Oh, these people know. So thank you for sharing it, Jackie. For me being bullied is where I started emotionally eating, but then like becoming aware of boys and wanting to be attractive, you know, to them is like where this stuff accelerates. And, and so many people around you are doing it. All the magazines are telling you. So Yes. Yeah. Okay.
Ali Shapiro [00:15:20]:
Yeah. It’s a brutal time. Okay. So, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So to ground our conversation today, we’re going to revolve our discussion around the tail triggers that we were going we’re going to be covering in my upcoming Why Am I Doing This Now? Live program. So for those of you listening, the triggers are tired, Am I feeling tired? Am I feeling anxious? Am I feeling inadequate? Or am I feeling lonely? And I always say to clients, ask yourself when you hear food noise that isn’t related to hunger, but emotional food noise, what’s at the tail end of this? Am I feeling tired? Am I feeling anxious? Anxious is usually uncertainty from the outside.
Ali Shapiro [00:16:04]:
So think of COVID, that kind of period, a lot of drinking, eating escalated for people. And adequacy is when the uncertainty is coming internally. So it’s like self doubt, feeling too much, not enough. And then loneliness is actually when our social needs aren’t getting met. So we can be around other people but feel really lonely. And these triggers contribute to, like, an internal thermometer. Okay? So they create a temperature or a feeling of stress and contraction, which is restriction, right, Jackie? Yeah. To our day.
Ali Shapiro [00:16:43]:
So these four triggers lead to an emotional sense of restriction, and deprivation. And I was even curious, Jackie, when you were talking about there were periods where you you didn’t feel you were restricting with food. I wonder if these triggers were more dormant at that time.
Jacqui [00:17:00]:
Yes, definitely. Especially the in that inadequacy because I think a lot of my inadequacy comes from, well, first of all, not going to college, and then trying to make up for it with work. So okay. I I went to, like, back then it was kind of like a finishing school, but it was secretarial for executives like specifically. So we were taught manners and just how to function in a high level world. And so that persona was so rewarding for me, because I was finally kind of like, given instructions, number 1. So it’s interesting because I looking back, I think not doing a traditional college route for me was was a blessing. I I mean, it was almost like I had a trade, but but in a different type of way.
Jacqui [00:18:04]:
So when I’m when I’m working in an actual building, not at home because that’s what I’ve been doing for literally since the pandemic. My inadequacy is really on the back burner. I feel my best. I feel at my most productive, most just, just kind of my best self. So that is kind of when I look back. Okay. When, when was I kind of breezy easy, you know, and and my close fit, and I had answers and I, you know, I was kind of on my feet, you know, quick and, and that it’s, it’s all around work. So that’s the one that really sticks out for me because, I pretty much override all the others.
Jacqui [00:18:53]:
Like mentally, not tired, screw loneliness, you know, just kind of, you know, I just kind of barrel through the others, even if they’re there. Yeah. And anger is anger the second one that you said? Oh, no. Anxiety. Anxiety.
Ali Shapiro [00:19:09]:
Uncertainty. Yeah. When I let
Jacqui [00:19:11]:
you know,
Tiffany [00:19:11]:
I brought that up
Ali Shapiro [00:19:13]:
because this compares to we often hear with emotional eating to use HALT, which is, am I hungry? Which is important, angry. And then it uses lonely and tired, in that traditional sense. And I think hunger is like, to me, that’s definitely can be something, but that doesn’t that’s not necessarily emotional hunger, like this emotional sense
Tiffany [00:19:38]:
of restriction that we’re
Ali Shapiro [00:19:39]:
talking about that can build up this internal sense of stress. I’m just eating. And I think hope misses, in my experience, the 2 biggest triggers for people, which is uncertainty and inadequacy like you’re explaining. Right? Like, it’s not like, oh, am I feeling not enough? Or am I feeling anxious, uncertain? So I think Halt misses the 2 biggest emotional drivers and what makes us feel restricted. Because what I heard in your answer, and I and I just love that answer. I can so relate because And I’m curious if you think I sense this pattern with me and my clients. We might have been late bloomers, we might have struggled with our weight and our looks. So it was like, Oh, if I can’t be beautiful and all the boys are gonna like me, then I’m gonna work really hard.
Ali Shapiro [00:20:30]:
Like, that’s how I can secure my belonging through that. And so, you’re kind of illustrating my point about emotional restriction when you feel like you have your answers and you feel like you’re in your zone of genius and you feel, you know, really on top of things. It’s like, oh, this
Tiffany [00:20:46]:
strategy of restriction, because I can
Ali Shapiro [00:20:46]:
I feel confident? I’m not restricting because I can I feel confident in not restricting myself in my in my zone of genius? Does that make sense?
Jacqui [00:20:57]:
Definitely. But but what’s interesting is being home has kind of forced me to look at what my actual real authentic geniuses. Mhmm. There’s, you know, like, the outward, you know, beautiful setting that I’m usually in while I’m working isn’t there anymore. So I’ve kinda had to say, okay. This is not exact it worked for a long time, and it was good, and it was part of me. But now I’m like, that’s just not probably not what I’m supposed to be doing at this point. Even even though that’s very scary to even put out there because, okay, what, you know, and, the whole money thing and, you know, just the the the anxiety that that causes for my husband.
Jacqui [00:21:56]:
And so, you know, when people say, you know, I was able to just, you know, break out of what I was doing and do what what I was supposed to be doing. It’s like, how, like, how the hell do people do this? Like because I know I have an idea in my head what I should be doing, but, it’s more of a logistical when, how, you know. So so yeah, I think, being out of that setting has kind of put me into who I would have probably been if I didn’t go into that career right from, you know, I was 19 years old. So, it’s interesting. It’s it’s I don’t like, I used to think, oh, I was hiding and that and I’m like, no. That that I wasn’t hiding. That was a real part of me, And I was really good at it. I’m doing it still, but, you know, my boss is retiring and it’s a very scary.
Jacqui [00:22:59]:
I mean, I I probably will have a job, but, what will it look like type of thing? So, I don’t know if that answered the question, but it’s, yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:23:14]:
Yeah. Well, what what what and Tiffany has been able to join us again. Wonderful. And we’ll we’ll ask her, is what I’m what the original question was that you noticed that things were easy breezy, your clothes fit when that inadequacy trigger was dormant. Right? So that you weren’t using this overall strategy of restriction at those times. You were like in your zone of genius, you felt competent. We all wanna feel like we’re contributing, that I love that you said is, like, inadequacy tends to be the big trigger for you. And you override the other ones, but we we all might have multiple ones, but there tends to be one that’s really driving us.
Ali Shapiro [00:23:59]:
Like, for me, postpartum and being menopausal at the same time, the tired trigger was just like, you know, it was like, I mean, I was so uncertain. I was like, what did I get myself into? Why did I blow up my life? What I mean, there was like a lot of like uncertainty and like questioning and so much loneliness trying to parent in a pandemic, especially as a older mom, first time mom. But the tiredness was that main trigger that was, was driving not I don’t emotionally eat or binge anymore, but it was driving the inability to cook how I needed to cook so that I could sleep and all of those things. So we have all these multiple triggers around the tail, but I think there’s certain ones that restrict us more than others at different times in our lives. So, that’s kind of what we were what we were talking about, and this will also help Tiffany ground into what we were talking about. So, Tiffany, let’s backtrack a little. Tell us about, you know, I don’t know if you were able to hear, but I said my idea of restriction is to expand it beyond just food, but also into, like, am I in choice in my life? So Jackie’s example of, you know, of of really liking her work for a really long time and feeling competent at it. Right? And then this is like total tangent, but I’ve been reading how midlife is like a second and third adolescence and how like you know, kind of our younger selves that maybe we didn’t live out.
Ali Shapiro [00:25:33]:
So it’s not that Jackie shouldn’t have been doing that all these years, but it sounds like and we’ll investigate this more into the conversation. Sounds like there’s a new calling, to relive some of those those other lives that weren’t lived at, which is exciting. Right? It’s not it doesn’t mean the last 20, 30 years are wrong. It just means, okay, we’ve done that side of ourselves. But Tiffany, how does that sound in terms of thinking of this restrict the sense of restriction and a strategy of restriction bigger than food, and then also sharing your own, you know, experience with restriction.
Tiffany [00:26:12]:
I tend to see restriction as, like, in the mind or the brain, I suppose, is overriding the body. And so then you you don’t have access to impulse or desire or creativity in the same way. Like, you’re really limited whether it’s by a seer or even intellectualization, like, having to just think your way through, plan your way through. And that’s, like, that’s somewhere that I glitch. My restriction started around the same time as yours, Jackie is around 14. I’ve always been told this by my mama that I’m, like, very black and white. There everything’s in an in an extreme. And so it was an extreme restriction from the get go and never really loosened up.
Tiffany [00:27:06]:
I just simply replaced it with other strategies of restriction or other ways of limiting myself, so as to claim a healthier state. Like, oh, well, now I’m I’m not restricting my food as much, but I don’t eat unless I exercise this much. Or, you know, I’d be safe around food as long as I avoided all social situations. And so there was always some element of restriction because there wasn’t an element of safety or soft trust. Yeah. And to speak to, like, the acquisition of that was was through work as well. I started to gain a sense of freedom from the restriction when I was I again, I’m like, like, I’m only seeing this now, this extremist situation where I pulled all my stuff and started looking for yoga teacher trainings. I didn’t even know that I had gotten the job yet, and I went into a 10 day silent retreat.
Tiffany [00:28:18]:
And it was just like, I’m going to let go of everything I’ve known before and start again. It felt like everything was bound up in some kind
Jacqui [00:28:30]:
of rule box.
Tiffany [00:28:33]:
And I just got to that, like, I guess it’s like the ultimate shove it, fuck it,
Jacqui [00:28:38]:
to use some of the truth of food language.
Tiffany [00:28:42]:
And, yeah. I ended up just laying all my cards down. And, and then when I did get the gig, cooking for yoga teacher trainings is when I felt the most alive and the most connected to through in a genuine relationship way. I I neglected to say that at one point in my story, I became a chef in order to, like, quote unquote heal my relationship with food, but it was really just like, if I’m a chef, then I have an excuse to only eat my food because I would cook. It was it was a guardrail of sorts that even in that is very limited because there’s I mean, most of the chefs I know will eat, absolutely anything. So and, yeah, and then when I was looking for those teacher trainings, there was a sense of agency to come back to what was you forget to be that word, Dolly, where I made the decisions. And I was outside of, like, even a a typical work life paradigm, like, really just in this, permission to try things out for the time of my life. And and to and having the confidence in myself to try things out.
Tiffany [00:30:09]:
Like, nothing felt like it was gonna be a disaster if it wasn’t preplanned. So, plus, they got to cook my by the ocean.
Jacqui [00:30:19]:
I know
Tiffany [00:30:20]:
that’s that’s pretty liberating.
Jacqui [00:30:24]:
Much.
Tiffany [00:30:24]:
Yeah. That’s the most it would be a restriction.
Ali Shapiro [00:30:31]:
I love that you use the word permission. I think that is such a way to think about because, the opposite of restriction, right? Like, I mean, we can feel restriction in our body, but I think expansion can often be the other extreme, and that can feel really vulnerable, whereas permission feels like, oh, I can, like you said, explore this. Right? It doesn’t have to be the black and white all or nothing. So I love that word permission as, like, how do we start getting out of this restrictive habit? Because I love your I mean, your stories, I think, so illustrates how if we think restriction is a strategy, not just with food, but overall, it guides so many of our decisions. Even, like, for to your point, like, I became a chef so that I could actually restrict that I’m the only person who can feed me, right? And it looked and so we think we’re making these quote unquote fulfilling decisions, but they’re still driven by this, the sense of, you know, I need to restrict to be in control. But then when we get permission or agency, we and we feel safe in that. And I love that you said that there is there does need to feel like a sense of safety as you’re coming out of this, that it’s okay, that it feels liberating. I mean, it’s scary, but it’s it’s liberating once we can realize that we’re allowed to have permission to experiment or, you know, which could lead us to cooking in our bikini in the ocean
Jacqui [00:31:58]:
by the ocean.
Tiffany [00:32:00]:
Part of that is is this level of, like, sensuality. I feel like that somewhere that a lot a lot of us experience restriction because we’re the sensual is feminine, the feminine is repressed because of, you know, mom some of this. And in reality, it’s a huge part of a relationship of food, and that’s where I was connecting to it as a as a chef as well, like, to hold the both and, to hold each truth in my palms. Like, one was control and the other was, like, permission and sensuality. I like to work with I found it fascinating. I love smells and the creativity and touch, and and that’s all still true. But the restriction was so loud that it it made that other part almost scary. Like, we don’t wanna experience this this good part because then I’ve lost control.
Tiffany [00:32:59]:
You know? Mhmm. Wow. And that and that’s been a huge part of my, I don’t know, around a 1000 rehabilitation from from, restricting the slower eating and, to to let in the sensual nature of things a little bit more each time so that it’s not so scary. And and there is yeah. Like like you say, there’s choice. There’s agency because you’re experiencing things, not just through your brain’s plan, but through your body, and that’s an undeniable visceral experience that, yes, allows a lot more access to that function.
Ali Shapiro [00:33:47]:
Well, and I’m I’m thinking like the kind of a bridge of what Jackie was sharing about with you talking about sensuality and how, you know, part of the all or nothing black and white for girls And when you’re coming of age in middle school or high school, right, the archetypes that we have is like the Madonna or the whore. Right? Like you’re either this like chaste, like, you know, unsensual girl, or if you, like, honor what puberty is doing, making you sexual. And it’s just interesting that Jackie was like, I like this boy. Right? And it’s like, oh my god. You know? But it’s like, not only then do you restrict those impulses you talked about, Tiffany. I feel like even before what you know to call them as a girl, right? It’s like, Oh my God, is part of this restriction then restricting my sensuality, and my sex drive and my hormones are because the culture tells me, like, you don’t wanna be that girl, right? We all know, at least in my school, like you knew who the slut was, right? And so, I see all of this wrapped up in so many layers, I guess, is what I’m kind of I I don’t know. Talk amongst yourselves. Am I saying something that makes sense?
Jacqui [00:35:04]:
No. I I totally understand what you’re saying. Yeah. And I didn’t think of it until Tiffany brought that in.
Tiffany [00:35:13]:
And it’s funny because you I mean, if you’d had that cookie, you may have been, like,
Jacqui [00:35:18]:
a little less inhibited to,
Tiffany [00:35:20]:
you know, tell your crush how you feel.
Jacqui [00:35:23]:
Yeah. No.
Tiffany [00:35:26]:
Not so we did with Stacy Bransauer, and she said, you know, like, we should be able to have the cake and and have sex and not feel shame around it. And that’s, you know, there’s those are the, those are the 2 places I think women are restricted the most is, like, food and sexuality. And
Jacqui [00:35:48]:
Oh my gosh. Yes.
Tiffany [00:35:50]:
I mean, the more you’re told sort of quiet in one area, you’re just gonna start wondering if you’re too loud in other ones, whether they’re related or not. Whether it is, like, not not not showing your intellectualism or relying heavily on it in order to not be these other
Ali Shapiro [00:36:07]:
things. We can go both ways, I guess. Yeah. I think we have all a lot of those moments Jackie described is like, oh, I should be restricting. Right? Like, whether it’s sexuality or food or, like, you know, I’m even thinking about how, like, in 3rd grade, I supposedly talked out and got my notes at home. You know, and my parents, they were teachers, so they were like, we know what it’s like to have difficult students. So they like, don’t talk out, you know? And and I still remember that it was like a pink slip. And and now I’m looking back, I’m like, I probably had to talk out because the boys were probably getting called on.
Ali Shapiro [00:36:43]:
And, you know, and I wasn’t in like, that was the only way to be heard. And I still had enough sense of confidence that, like, I should be heard. So I think that happens in, like, so many ways where girls get dinged in a way. And again, boys have their own challenges. That’s what we’re talking about in the beginning. This is not a zero sum who has it worse. But I think there’s so many ways that our impulses, we get that shock of you, you need to restrict that you need to pull back.
Jacqui [00:37:12]:
Yeah. And you know what I always think of is, because I always said my goal for my kids is not for them to be the most polite or the the most well behaved because so much of your personality just gets squashed when you’re polite. And I just, you know, Allie, you’re just bringing up so much in my mind about how at that age group, whether it’s because the teacher needs control or you’re just, you know, being taught that you have to be polite. And then you get to be an adult and you’re supposed to turn on the, you know, assertiveness button. So it’s so good to see you.
Ali Shapiro [00:37:59]:
Prevent your bitchy.
Jacqui [00:38:00]:
Yes. Like, you’re supposed to advocate for yourself with doctors and, and then you’re seen as kind of, you know, like, doormat or you, you, you don’t have confidence, but you weren’t, You taught it. You you suppressed it. So you’re still a 12 year old. You know, telling a doctor, oh, if you don’t mind, could I just, you know, chime in about my own health? You know?
Tiffany [00:38:27]:
Yeah. You know? Yes. Totally. On that, Jackie, it’s like, rather than teaching politeness, you need to you don’t have examples of tact. Like, how to have compensation in respectful ways, how to Absolutely. Navigate difficult conversations with integrity and grace. Because they’re all just confrontation. It’s like somewhere where we have a restricted definition.
Tiffany [00:38:54]:
It’s just confrontation. We just disagree. And instead, it’s like, there’s, there’s not a lot of people who have carried on the wisdom of tact to pass it onto us.
Jacqui [00:39:10]:
And you see it in social media all the time. Like, you know, people are supposedly claiming their power, but they’re killing other people verbally. You know? There there has to be room for kind you know, not kindness. I feel like kindness has been kind of hijacked.
Tiffany [00:39:27]:
Yeah. The word. You know?
Ali Shapiro [00:39:29]:
Everything that’s for redefinition.
Jacqui [00:39:35]:
It’s like you know, II read this thing once, and it was basically just a statement, just kind of a hot take that said, if you feel uncomfortable in the doctor’s office, you have the right to walk out no explanation. It’s like, no. Like, that just leaves so much carnage behind, you know, just like, you know, there’s an in between and
Ali Shapiro [00:39:58]:
strategy. Right? It’s it’s a void protection strategy.
Jacqui [00:40:02]:
I don’t I don’t owe anyone anything. Well, no, if you wanna live in this world, yeah, you you kind of do. So I totally under that tact is the perfect word for it. Yeah. It’s missing. Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:40:15]:
I like that Tiffany said like oh, I was just saying that Yeah. I think there’s a slight delay. But that tipping you said there’s like, you know, and this is what we work on in MindMeaning this now and Truth With Food, like, what are these expanded definitions of these concepts that allow us not to restrict, right? Conflict can be really, really healthy, if people are greeting with respect, everyone understands their own triggers, but it can get to like much more productive solutions. Right? But obviously, the cultural waters we swim in, you know, in capitalism, conflict slows productivity down, you know, white supremacy conflict, like, you know, we judge other people as difficult that aren’t really difficult. They’re just saying like, hey, this is kind of fucked up. And then obviously, patriarchy, like, it’s, you know, conflict of, like, women aren’t supposed to be difficult. Right? Like, you’re slowing you’re slowing the whole the whole system down. So I think this
Tiffany [00:41:15]:
need to be
Ali Shapiro [00:41:18]:
Oh, yeah. Go ahead, Tiffany. Sorry. There’s a delay. Are are you hearing the delay too, Jackie, or is it just me?
Jacqui [00:41:23]:
A little. Yes. Lately. Yeah.
Tiffany [00:41:25]:
Okay. To me, like, conflict would actually if we knew how to use it, would speed things up because it’s a form of collaboration. Like, when you disagree but you have an open mind, then you’re just hearing new information. You’re not hearing wrong information. And so then there’s there’s an invitation invitation information to expand as in say, Ally. And so, which is to bring it back to like, food, body image, what our love story to ourselves. When we’ve decided something about, like, how we need to do our diet, or how much we need to exercise, or how we need to live to be right and good and safe, then any information that ends in this in conflict to that is like a threat instead of an opportunity to, like, see another way. And it’s not and I feel like it’s not until you actually try it on it in your body.
Tiffany [00:42:30]:
Maybe I just hung up on this sent you out anything now. But Good point. That will give you such a true response. Like, you’ve been in the the blood sugar work that we do or, you know, you take a little nap and you realize how even though in your head you’re like, oh, I can’t I can’t nap because this is this, these rules that you set for yourself. And then you try something on physically, and there’s an undeniable response there.
Ali Shapiro [00:43:00]:
Yeah. Well, and I think to this will kinda let’s circle back to the tail triggers. I think when your system is so overloaded, right, because of from restriction, expansion or like, feeling something in your body can almost feel wrong. Right? Like the same way sensuality can be coded as bad. Right? It feels like I have to lock this down in a way. And so then that that like builds and builds until we do the Chuck it effort or we can’t be in conflict or so this sense of restriction, like, limits our capacity to actually let, I think of like the emotion unfurl, right? Like you We first need to even know, like, what am I so stressed by? Or why am I having this big reaction? And I think that’s so hard because so many of us growing up, again, even if you had great parents like me, you grew up in like, emotionally, emotions are inconvenient, someone else has it worse. Whatever we’re doing, we’re not making it safe for the actual restrictive triggers to like even be known. Right? Like I think even, Jackie, you saying like, you know, this work was great for a while and it’s messy and I don’t know what’s next.
Ali Shapiro [00:44:19]:
It’s like you’re just giving yourself the permission to expand into and feel through, okay, this inadequacy trigger is big right now. And so rather than just stepping it down, but like, it’s not like you feel it and immediately have an answer or a solution, right? So, we first have to give it space, I think. And I think the strategy of restriction doesn’t even allow us to give ourselves space to say, like, and why am I I think, and I think the strategy of restriction doesn’t even allow us to give ourselves space to say, like, and why am I doing this now? The first the second lesson is like, what is the trigger? And people are so used to saying, well, it’s like someone had conflict with me or it was social media. And it’s like, but we have to say, what’s it bringing up internally? Like, what does that bring up? And it’s hard to name because we just haven’t been taught to give space for it because our whole culture uses a strategy of restriction for women and then the more marginalized you are. I know I kinda went off on I went global, but to take it back to you guys, does that resonate? And if we think of, you know, we can have multiple tail triggers, like I loved how Tiffany said you could be tired, while also feeling, like, lonely in something. But does that resonate with you in terms of, like, first being able to tune in even to yourself to let yourself identify maybe one of these tail triggers that are causing emotional restriction even, like to even understand what you’re being triggered by and give space for that. To let that be expand. Like, we have to even get there first.
Jacqui [00:45:53]:
Definitely. And I’m just now, because I think in my mind before, not before, but what initially comes up in me when there is conflict, you know, I can picture myself just with my hands clenched thinking if I allow this other idea in, I’m gonna lose myself. Like and I won’t be able to get back to what I originally thought or felt. This happens a lot in my marriage. Michael, my husband is a very, he’s a, he’s a very logical and he just has a very, he’s just logical, I guess that’s all I can think of. You know, he’s a good he’s a big thinker and a very compassionate thinker. And when he says things, I can just see myself saying, no, no, you’re wrong. And and he’ll he’ll just kind of stop and say, okay, let’s just kind of, you know, take a breath and I’m not attacking you.
Jacqui [00:47:05]:
Like, let’s just think about so, you know, just that whole process in my, upbringing and in my psyche is so foreign. Like, nope, this is how I feel. I’m going with this. Even if it’s destructive because I just can’t stand the feeling of allowing, I don’t know, releasing control or, again, I think the first thing I said, you know, losing myself, and being controlled, I guess.
Ali Shapiro [00:47:36]:
Well, and I think that’s important because developmentally again, and this is what we’re all working on is like developmentally, we when we are younger, like to you kinda need the approval of outside people, right, to take care of you and care about you. So, like, in in a way, we can lose ourselves, right, if if we’re not aware of, oh, we can to belong, we can be the have different opinions or what can I learn from this? But I like how you’re even just your verbalization of, like, I just wanna shut down. Right? Like, you’re that’s contraction. Right? That’s restriction. Like I can’t even take this in, to realize that I can hold the end, like I can still be me and take this in. And and again, if we come back to the body, it’s like, you aren’t what you eat, you’re what your die what you digest and metabolize. Right? And so it’s like, what am I actually digesting from this? What do I wanna take? What do I wanna leave versus I have to eat the whole thing? You know? It’s a great way to stop it.
Jacqui [00:48:40]:
Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:48:40]:
Yeah. Yeah. But that’s why I think the solution to restriction isn’t like, oh, expansion and just no discernment. Right? It’s like emotionally knowing what’s important to me, you know, like, you know, with your husband. Right? It’s like, okay. If if right now, good communication is important, how can we both do that or hear about each other. Right? Like, so that it doesn’t feed that inadequacy trigger of, you know, I think most couples have 1, one issue that they just circle the drain around, and, like, you try to get to the core of it over decades.
Tiffany [00:49:18]:
Regardless of the next time,
Ali Shapiro [00:49:19]:
where there’s more. Yes.
Jacqui [00:49:25]:
What about
Ali Shapiro [00:49:25]:
you, Tiffany, though? If you think of, you know, that using the tail acronym, tired, anxious, inadequate, loneliness, can you think Jackie talked about inadequacy, right? And maybe that that even like telling her husband, Oh my God, I can’t even like take this in. I’ll lose myself. Right? It’s like, sometimes we don’t feel strong enough in ourself or realizing when she’s not in the office, right, she loses part of that identity, right, of how competent and how, good she is at her work. And that’s an important part of our identity. Can you think of what of the tail triggers have been the reoccurring, perhaps prominent one for you, that make you want to to restrict food?
Tiffany [00:50:09]:
I’d say earlier in my life, it was a lot of anxiety while overwhelmed.
Jacqui [00:50:15]:
Mhmm.
Tiffany [00:50:16]:
And it felt like I can only hold so much. And so the thing that I put down is caring for myself. I’m just being subjected to help. When you put food down, it’s really what it was. And I just won’t eat, and then I don’t have to deal with that one more thing. And I can power through the rest then. And, yeah, usually, I would just remove food from the okay equation, and then I didn’t have to hold so much. And I still, as I was thinking about these cultures in reference to my now, because I I feel like I’m in a very ambiguous now.
Tiffany [00:50:58]:
I’ve just had my 3rd baby. I’m still kind of some full land, and and motherhood is upheaval, three times over. And now I would I would say that inadequacy is a lot louder than me, but it all it almost feels the same. It almost feels like, there’s so much to hold, and I can’t hold it off. So am I going to hold this or am I going to hold that instead of learning to hold things like a little less? Because when I say hold, I’m not in control. Oh, yes. So if I can learn to control things a little bit less, there’s still hell. The balls are not dropping, you know, or maybe they’re flat.
Tiffany [00:51:50]:
Yeah. Which balls are glass and which ones are rather, but it’s not that. It’s it’s more like holding versus clenching. You know? And so when I’m feeling inadequate, I start to, like, I start to clench harder. So what I know I can do, because it gives me still that sense of control. And it feels like very forced behavior. It feels like very preplanned, not present, unyielding behavior. Like, I think often reality is actually safer than my planned expectations.
Tiffany [00:52:39]:
You know, reality is actually like a soft, forgiving, gracious place. But there’s that when lack of self trust or or fear of judgment pops in, I guess. It doesn’t feel safe as in as it is.
Ali Shapiro [00:53:03]:
Part of the work we do in Why Making The Sound Truth With Food is, like, really evaluate our perception. It doesn’t mean we we question our experience, right, in terms of like, I love Tiffany, you’re saying like, I feel like I’m clenching or holding a lot. That is true. And what you’re talking about is like, how am I understanding holding clenching, right? Or even Jackie, how am I hearing my husband say that he has a different opinion, right? Is it attacking me? Versus like,
Jacqui [00:53:32]:
I just wanna have a conversation.
Ali Shapiro [00:53:34]:
And so that how we’re viewing these triggers is actually the work. Right? It’s like once we can identify them, it’s like, how do I actually realize what you said, Tiffany, so beautifully is that reality is actually often a softer place to land. That’s that’s kinda how I’m interpreting it, than my expectations. How have you started to work through the inadequacy triggers for for I’m curious for each of you and kind of getting a clearer sense of what’s actually happening versus the building up of tension that makes us just wanna, and, you know, restrict or turn to food. Either way, it’s not in alignment with your goals. So do you mind sharing that?
Tiffany [00:54:20]:
Sure. I think I think what this work is really when I think about the clenching and the holding, it’s like I I tend to think in in opposite, it’s a black and white streams, and I even came into this work thinking this is gonna be my radical change.
Jacqui [00:54:45]:
And
Tiffany [00:54:45]:
So you guys it’s my next door where, you know, I go on this. I give all my stuff away, hoping to get this gig and go into silence for 10 days, and it just, like, I can I’d be pretty, like, cut and run. And so, I think that what I’m learning here is, like, to slip that change instead of, like, glorify this, like, radical, shift. And that, in doing so, I’m, like, lessening the grip a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more. So that, I guess, sticking to me with the full lean analogy, it just feels like my palms are open instead. I’m listening more. And I will see then it it doesn’t even factor in as much as it is. I feel like I’m more of a participant in our dynamic as a family instead of an inadequate mother because I can’t do all the things or because I’m frustrated.
Tiffany [00:55:55]:
Or and so, yeah, there there’s there’s so much more space and, space. Tiffany, can you
Ali Shapiro [00:56:08]:
use the example of of your of celebrating your baby’s birthday and the ritual? Because I think this is such to make this concrete for listeners, I think this is, like, such a beautiful, like, example. Do you mind sharing, like, what you mean by, like, being present rather than the judgment of an inadequate, you know, mother?
Tiffany [00:56:28]:
My husband and I have a tradition. It’s the only one we have in our little hello, 5 5 person unit, and it’s that we have birthday cake at the exact hour of each of our solar returns, so every year it changes. And we’ve had midnight birthday cake, we’ve had 4:30 in the morning birthday cake, and that was my son’s last December. And mine was in February, and it was at I think it was 4:30 midnight or something. And so I meet Kate, and, I go to wake everyone up in time to celebrate with me, and they’re they’re just
Jacqui [00:57:14]:
out. Like,
Ali Shapiro [00:57:16]:
I have a 4
Tiffany [00:57:18]:
4a half year old and almost 3 year old, and then a 6 month old. And, like, everyone’s asleep, and I immediately like, in my head, that makes sense. The reality is they’re based, and they need to sleep. And and and that’s the safe reality. So then my expectation is that I’m not worth getting up for. Like, it’s not worth it as I’m to wake up to have birthday cake for me. But if it was, you know, anyone else’s birthday, we would we would always have fun, have it together, and and that I shouldn’t make a big deal out of it. I should just let them sleep.
Tiffany [00:58:01]:
I shouldn’t insist that they celebrate with me because then I’m too much, which is my story. And and then I should I should just forget it and just move on and just go forward again. Restrict yourself. Yeah. Restrict yourself. Don’t even enjoy the moment. Like, more cake for me. You know? But I so I cried.
Tiffany [00:58:29]:
I had a little fry over cake. And my husband actually got up with our daughter. She’s she’s just about 3 now. And he came out and had cake with me, and that it was so sweet. But before he came out, I decided for myself, I had my little let me just cry and asked myself, do what do do I want to have this cake? Like, do I wanna carry forth the celebration? Is it contingent on everyone’s I’m here. Like, what do I wanna do? And so I have a candle in it, and I had already lit it for myself and became out and that just felt all the more glorious, because I wasn’t in choice, as it said. With that phone, I was able to save a minute. And and the earlier version of me would probably have, practice not have the case.
Tiffany [00:59:30]:
Thought of a more perfect time to have it and to excuse myself and celebrating myself. Yeah. It’s just And I
Ali Shapiro [00:59:40]:
just love that example because it it shows how, like you said, you were in choice. Okay. And I think this is so important because what we often do is think that how we feel is how it is. Right? Like you said, like, oh my God, I felt like I’m not worth getting up for, I’m too much. This is Even though you knew logically, right? But the reality was somewhere in the middle. You’re totally worth getting up for and Right? It’s like, and I’m gonna start by showing getting up for myself and figuring out what I want. And then again And then it’s like, Oh, that’s like the restriction was I was still not allowing myself to have a version of what my needs met, right? And needs are more flexible, right? The need wasn’t to have all 3 kids I mean, ideally, in a couple years, it probably will happen, but the need was to celebrate and celebrate in this ritualized way that rituals are really important. And that need was still able to be satiated, met, but the flexibility for real life was also there.
Ali Shapiro [01:00:43]:
And that’s why I love focusing on needs instead of, like, do this, don’t do that behavior because real life is unpredictable. I mean, it’s like, you know, it it’s not like, Tiffin, you should have woken everyone up. It was like, no. What and what was unfolding? What was that impulse, right, that we talk about that we don’t wanna restrict?
Tiffany [01:01:01]:
And you nailed it. And the other thing that’s unique about that is, for and I’m just acknowledging now that, if I gone from a place of either, like, not having to hit it all or the alternative is like, well, I’m gonna just gonna eat the whole cake then. They were there wasn’t that. Like, it wasn’t there because of that pause to say, like, what do I I just don’t have one piece of cake. You know? I just wanna whatever whatever it was, and and that’s just presence is so is so key to to really making change, and to alleviating some of the restriction, I think, to be able to just be in your body in a clear mind on present with the to hold both truths of the reality that, yeah, my babes are sleeping, and yes, I want to, you know, like to hold all the nuance. It just requires a little bit more presence and a lot of expectation.
Ali Shapiro [01:02:19]:
Yeah. Yeah. It does. Presence is so key. And that’s why I think just even understanding that we’re restricting based on these triggers is so important because the presence then Because if we don’t do that, the presence feels like I’m too much. You’re asking too much. You’re not worth getting up for versus now you have the space to be like, wait. Is this picture that I’m looking at? I the way the only way I can describe perception, I think we all know what it is, but, like, for people listening, it’s almost like you’re looking through a specific frame at what’s happening, and that’s influencing how you feel.
Ali Shapiro [01:02:53]:
Right? It’s which then influences how you think. So it’s putting judgment to it’s almost like perception is the judgment of the impulse that Tiffany wanted to celebrate her birthday. Right? And so the perception was that she was able to check was, I’m too much. You’re not worth getting up for. Right? That was the judgment on the impulse. But because she was able to pause and use some of these skills, it was like, wait a second. Okay. That may be true.
Ali Shapiro [01:03:24]:
And what do I need? Like, I can turn away from, like, the judgment of self and turn towards myself and that and recognize what’s actually present versus the old conditioning. So that’s really key, I think, for people because if you aren’t aware of these triggers or you aren’t aware of what’s coming up internally, you believe that the pause and what you’re hearing and feeling is actually what’s true. And it may not be. It’s probably gonna be a restricted version of how you should restrict instead of how you should be present. So, I just want to say that. Jackie, how about you? How are you working through your inadequacy trigger? Or do you have any comments on that? I mean, this is a free flowing conversation.
Jacqui [01:04:12]:
Well, I, keep going back to what you refer to, Ali, is the email scenario. Like, when you’re reading an email, oh my goodness. I’ve had this so much throughout my life when, you know, since we’ve had email. It’s just, I’ll read something and based on my frame of mind, I I can read into it and and almost imagine that I see certain words and I go back and those words aren’t even in the email. It’s it’s so it’s so helpful to see it. And and I can remember this one time in in an office where I had a coworker and I said, oh my god. Like, would you just this guy, you know, basically had a, like, triggering person that I was working with. And, she looked at the email and she said, I don’t I don’t see what you’re saying.
Jacqui [01:05:13]:
It was kind of like, I’m I and then I just kind of, you know, got up, got a cup of coffee, went back, and I reread it. Nothing. What I was so convinced that I knew what he was saying and it was such a vanilla email. So anyway, I I definitely I love that example of perception because it really can seem like reality. And, Yeah. I think mostly, I think the inadequacy triggers that type of thinking with me. And I remember when I first started here, with with Truth With Food, I was talking about the the monogramming situation at work, Pottery Barn. And, and, and I laugh at myself because I see the same scenario pretty much every day that I’m in that store that I thought was so threatening at the time.
Jacqui [01:06:13]:
And now Can you explain it to people? Yes. Yes. Yes. Of course. Yes. So, long story short, I started this part time job at Pottery Barn and the the position for the monitoring person was open. So I trained for it, and I and I, you know, started doing this. And rather than say, okay, this is really new for me.
Jacqui [01:06:38]:
This is a big machine, and give myself a little grace. I immediately was like, I suck. This is not what I should be doing. Why did I even bring this upon myself? Like, literally thinking, I this job’s done. I’m done. So, I came in 1 night and, I was almost in tears and just that feeling of I just have to escape this. And I saw the 2 managers talking and I was convinced they were talking about me and just how bad I was doing. And, I called the woman that trained me and she said, I think that the machine is broken.
Jacqui [01:07:18]:
You you probably need to just get it serviced. And that was literally what had happened to be. It the machine was broken. And, I just kept, you know, I was doing things faster. It was, like, reminded me of, like, Lucy, that Lucy episode where she’s seen it on the chocolates. Yeah. Me doing this one, and I’m throwing the other ones in a in into a cabinet. You know, the the ones I ruined.
Jacqui [01:07:46]:
It was so it was so funny in a way, but so, I was in such a state. So anyway, that that’s basically how, I handle a lot of things, not as outward, you know, typically, it’s a little bit more quiet, that I’m internally doing all of that or, you know, like, I’m anyway, I I I don’t know. Does that is that did that kind of answer the
Ali Shapiro [01:08:16]:
Yeah. So I think what you’re saying. Part part of how you’re working through it is realizing that you’re not wrong. That they’re that you’re not the one that is inadequate. The circumstances are inadequate.
Jacqui [01:08:32]:
Yes.
Ali Shapiro [01:08:32]:
Which is basically called you know, that is, like, yeah. So that’s what I think what you’re saying is how you’re starting to work through it is like, Wait, maybe not the first thing is to contract and restrict and assume I’m wrong. Right? Because when we feel we’re wrong, like everyone listening, when you feel like something’s wrong, you can feel the contraction. You can feel the restriction in your body instead of saying, wait a second. Pottery Barn. You’re you charge a lot. You need a better machine. Machine.
Ali Shapiro [01:09:03]:
Right. I remember you saying that. I mean, we were, like, laughing and crying in the group at the because we I have so many people can relate to being like, it’s on me. It’s on me. And then it’s like, I think it’s the machine.
Jacqui [01:09:16]:
Yes. I mean, how clear could that have been? And and I’m realizing now, I think part of why the job that I’m doing doesn’t fit as as, you know, well as it used to because we were taught in school, that it’s never the executives issue. You fix it. And and I did. I mean, it was just, you know, you figure stuff out with very little information. You’re a mind reader, you’re and when you screw up, it’s you. I mean, there’s no one else. It’s my, you know, I don’t, it’s not a team.
Jacqui [01:09:51]:
It’s it’s so it was it was the perfect job for me because I did that my whole life in my family, which I think my family wouldn’t agree. But, you know, I definitely took on that role of, okay, what’s everyone up to? You know, what’s going on without any words, just to kind of, master that whole fix it type of role. You
Tiffany [01:10:19]:
know? Well,
Ali Shapiro [01:10:19]:
and, and I love, I think that’s part of the healing that’s happening for you is like, I can do this. I’m good at it. And do I wanna do that anymore? And do you mind, Jackie, I loved because I still like, especially as a mother got emotional, do you mind sharing how because I think some of the huge progress that you made is you were always told you were too emotional. And I think part of the way that Tiffany and I were talking about to be present, just to have let the emotion unfurl. Can you share the experience of your daughter at her crew race? I’m gonna like, I have to go right ahead.
Jacqui [01:10:56]:
Yes. Yes. I would love to.
Ali Shapiro [01:10:58]:
Not restricting.
Jacqui [01:11:00]:
Well, it’s interesting because since that happened, and I’ll explain that, a few other things have happened related to my kids too, in that same emotion. So the the thing with my daughter, we were at her last race. She rose, she’s rose since 8th grade. And, so this was her last race of her college, career. And I, yeah, I still can’t, I still get emotional, but we were watching it on the big screen, which is such a beautiful, view because it shows from the sky. I know there’s a better word for that, an aerial view. And it just shows these beautiful, these boats are so beautiful and the synchronicity of these kids that can just do this. And she was very close.
Jacqui [01:11:53]:
The race was very important And, they came within seconds of each other and it was such a beautiful finish. And right at that moment, I just broke down crying. And, for so long, I’ve I’ve held my emotion. And then later would feel it in some other, maybe appropriate way, but sometimes misdirected way. And it was the first time in a long time where I actually felt the emotion at that moment when it happened. And I mean, my son and my daughter were there, my son and my husband were there. They they’re not used to me being so, you know, emotional. And it was just, it was a beautiful moment for myself internally.
Jacqui [01:12:38]:
And then a few weeks later I was redoing my son’s bedroom. And they’re, they’re both out of the house at this point. And I I unwrapped my son’s, degrees. He he got to engineering and finance degree within four and a half years and, did with honors. You know? So I was so used to, and you guys will find this just every single minute is taken up and you’re onto the next thing you’re onto the next thing you saw. You’re onto the next problem. Solve that. You’re onto the next, award ceremony.
Jacqui [01:13:17]:
And then you’re, you know, and then you’re solving another problem. It’s just a constant, you know, and then Webb’s sitting there and I called him and I said, do you mind if I hang up your I’m sorry. Oh, I will. It’s just, he’s my oldest. And, I mean, as you both know that first it’s just like, you’re in love. It’s a love story. Right? And, just to see on on paper, this beautiful, just beautiful acknowledgment of his freaking hard work, taking 6 and 7 classes a semester to just get this done. And I finally slowed down to just take in the beauty of that.
Jacqui [01:14:13]:
And so he, he was really quiet too, because I think he was emotional as well. And I, you know, I just said, I’m so proud of you. Like, I, I can’t express in words for both of us. It was for both of us, you know, just, his accomplishment. And he said at one point about the job, he said, mom, you got me here. And, to hear that and feel it and know it was incredible. And this, the, the, truth with food, this is talk about timing, you know, my going through this stage, like you said, the second, whatever, the second half of life, what a gift to have this, structure to kind of put a name on all of this, Cause otherwise you’re just, you don’t feel like, but you’re on a boat in the middle of the sea, just kind of like, you know, all of these different emotions all at once, but it’s nice to be able to put a category on them and understand what’s actually happening. Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [01:15:28]:
Well, and I think this is, I thank you for sharing both of those examples because I think so much of, not feeling restricted emotionally is being able to be present for, like, right, beauty, right? The beauty in both of those experiences, like I even have I just have chills is like all the hard work that went into that, right? All of the, like you talked about, like, she’s your last one. Right? Like there’s like, it’s like it’s metaphorical. Right? But it’s like, but that’s also where all the fulfillment and so it’s like being able to, like, not restrict ourselves emotionally to be in is so it’s a skill set. It’s a you have to build capacity for it. Right? Exactly. But then you get the, like, did wasn’t there, like, that sense of fullness after both of those experiences that is, like, you can’t there’s no words for it.
Jacqui [01:16:23]:
It’s not manmade. Yeah, it’s a total spiritual shift.
Ali Shapiro [01:16:31]:
Yes. Yes. Yes. And that’s what I just love all both of your examples because it’s it’s being in choice, right? Like I wanna be present for this stuff. All of like for birthdays, for, oh my god, I’m struck by these degrees. Oh my god, it’s the finish line. Right? And I think if it’s not a happy emotion, we’re often told it’s wrong or if it’s a complicated emotion that, you know? Yeah. So I just appreciate both of you, you know, sharing those those examples.
Ali Shapiro [01:17:04]:
And, Jackie, I did wanna ask you since we’ve talked about, you know, your emotional stuff. You you said and and obviously, you gave me permission to ask you this, but, you’ve said that this work has been able to touch places that therapy hasn’t. And I’m just can you explain that? Because sometimes people are like, is this therapy? I’m like, no, but it’s therapeutic. And so just if you can explain.
Jacqui [01:17:26]:
That’s a really good way to put it, Allie, therapeutic. You know, I thank God that, you know, I I then off and on in therapy since my early twenties and it’s been incredible. This though, and my last therapist, it was, I think, December or January. She was like, I can’t, you know, this is it. Like, there’s nothing else to do here, basically. And I was like, okay. But, thank goodness that, you know, I kind of was happening upon truce with food because I did need more. But, it truth truth with food, it it it gives you, or it gave me, just a, almost like, I guess, a workbook to outline the different parts of the emotions, the physical part, kind of like, okay, what parts can you control, and address those finally, like, there are tools that actually address this stuff, the physical stuff, especially so that the other stuff can kind of unfold on its own.
Jacqui [01:18:46]:
And and, you know, just the beginning where you kind of do the timeline, where you, you know, where did my journey begin? When did it start? Like, it’s such a, I needed that visual to kind of see, okay, this is where this kind of started. And, I don’t know if if I’m making sense, but just it it it allowed me to dig deeper without killing myself, you know, without without sometimes therapy is like, okay, get it all out, you know, just that the the dark yucky stuff. Right? This kind of had a way of gently shaking up what’s in there, if that makes sense. Shaking it up. What it it yeah.
Ali Shapiro [01:19:38]:
Well, you mentioning, like, some of that stuff. I think it’s making certain connections that have been elusive. Right? And it’s like, it’s like, oh, when you’re making this, you’re seeing this from a different way. It really shifts your self perception. Right? Like realizing that when we have these triggers, going to food makes sense, going realizing that we have to understand what our needs are to not restrict, right? It’s just a little bit of a different I think Tiffany has said the self trust, right? I think it does a lot to just be like, Oh, I don’t love food so much that I’m crazy around it or I don’t or I this restriction or this all or nothing isn’t necessarily natural to who I am. It’s these are protections
Tiffany [01:20:18]:
or ways to protect myself.
Jacqui [01:20:20]:
Yes. Like, it’s not your fault. I think it’s so overused too, but that’s it. Yeah. Like it’s just like, oh, there’s reasons for this and they have nothing to do with me. So I don’t have to fix it. You know, I can apply certain things to, to things that, you know, bother me. But, the whole idea of, oh, I really do know.
Jacqui [01:20:49]:
I know, you know, and and partly, I don’t remember which lesson this was, but when you can look at, doctors, friends, whatever, as, what did you say? Not experts, but,
Ali Shapiro [01:21:05]:
oh, not authoritarian. Like, doctors can be experts, but they’re not the ultimate authority on what works or what what should be done.
Jacqui [01:21:14]:
In which is I wish I knew that with my kids, because when you have a baby, that doctor is god in in my experience, which is oof, I think of the stuff I believed. So, yeah.
Ali Shapiro [01:21:28]:
We all do though at this time.
Jacqui [01:21:30]:
Like, help me fix me. Right? Or fix this baby that’s crying constantly. I yeah. So basically, it turns it it allows you to turn to to kind of, you know, listen to the experts, gather the information, as you said, digest it. And what what is what works for me? Like, Yeah. I got that is the most valuable thing that I have found that, yeah, I do know the answers. I just have to, sift through and and see what sticks.
Ali Shapiro [01:22:08]:
Yeah, I think the repairing of self trust is like probably the secret sauce of the work that I do. So, okay. So one last question for you guys, for you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Do you wanna yeah. You look like you want to say anything, but I didn’t wanna go ahead, Tiffany.
Tiffany [01:22:25]:
Just that there’s, I think, to to speak to Jackie’s point that to just stay fully into 2 words, there’s this balance of, like, grace. Like, you get this insight into yourself. And, and you’re teetering on this opportunity for grace, like, oh, this is this makes sense. This is what you know, it may all make sense. Instead of, like, it means something you need to fix about yourself, you just can see the delineation. So you get all this grace, but then you’re it’s also, like, it is a call to accountability. It’s because only you know what you need. So then only you can be the one to make the change.
Tiffany [01:23:12]:
So it’s not like a quick fix program where you’re giving all your power over to this thing that’s gonna fix you, be it a a diet or a program of sorts. It’s like it’s such a call to participate in your own life. You know? Absolutely. To be like, I’m the one that can break this cycle, and it’s not because there’s something wrong with me. And so you get to have compassion and grace, and you you can’t, like, shame yourself into change. So then
Ali Shapiro [01:23:45]:
Yes. You know? It’s really,
Tiffany [01:23:48]:
it’s such a beautiful harmony between those two necessary essential things to change.
Ali Shapiro [01:23:57]:
Thank you. I I I really appreciate both of you saying that. Because, yeah, it I don’t know how to you do know. So You do know. So you have to
Tiffany [01:24:13]:
this work where we’re very well versed in kicking our own assets. Like,
Ali Shapiro [01:24:19]:
And Yeah. That is the worst thing we got. Yeah. It’s the peaking in the
Tiffany [01:24:23]:
ass of
Ali Shapiro [01:24:24]:
of having this. Like, you can have this this stuff that you
Tiffany [01:24:28]:
take your ass off. And having having a fun. Right. I mean, having I want to be more
Jacqui [01:24:39]:
I think that the work is so much easier than the other work because it’s fruitful. The other work was just painful. And I I think I heard you on a there was one episode of your, podcast I I listened to, Ali, and it was about the biggest loser. And in in in one of the, little I don’t know who said it, but it was basically like, the whole summing up of the article was basically, there is hope, but you need to do this, do this, do this, do this. You know, as as far as like, you gotta get your food in in line, you’ve gotta and it it was just this feeling of, like, I don’t want, you know, like, devastating to hear that that’s the solution. I know. Like, so long way around to say that it just, all of the solutions I knew were not going to work. And it was so disputing even before it’s okay, I’ll do this, but it was kind of like, I knew it wasn’t gonna work.
Ali Shapiro [01:25:48]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, because restriction isn’t ultimately, they’re all restricting us, like, even, like, workout at, you know, you gotta work out 5 days. It’s like, but what if I don’t sleep well because I’m in menopause, you know, in perimenopause? It’s like you’re actually restricting what’s present, right? Like you’re knowing of like, I should not work out hardcore today or or it is not a great time to do a calorie deficit when you’re in perimenopause. It’s like you’re Or postpartum or the context which Tiffany and I have talked a lot in the group about the feminine. Like, you bring in the feminine and you get context. You get seasonality, you get cycles, versus do this, do it forever. And that’s what a lot of habit hacking and stacking is about.
Ali Shapiro [01:26:33]:
It’s like, all right, you gotta do these 5 things every day. And it’s like, you definitely don’t have a kid. Your kid definitely did not wake up telling you he had diarrhea, which is I remember, like, you know what I mean? Or you don’t have a dog that just, you know, like, has to go to the vet whatever. Like, there’s no caretaking responsibilities and a lot of this happens. So, yeah. Okay. So one last question because I know I’ve kept you guys, for some time. So what in your life today feels more expansive? And we’ve gone through some examples.
Ali Shapiro [01:27:05]:
What in your life today feels more expansive and less restricted that has enabled food to naturally fall into place without white knuckling it? So without all the rules, but as you work on these, like, inadequacy triggers for, obviously, of different circumstances, What can you say feels more expansive and has made food easier that is, like, emotionally related?
Tiffany [01:27:40]:
I would say, like, I know that slowing down is, like, not a profound Yes.
Ali Shapiro [01:27:48]:
It is. It’s like I think we all
Tiffany [01:27:53]:
know that we need it, but so I guess one thing one thing I’m realizing even in just, like, putting the concept of as in, like I mean, I’m postpartum with my surveys after a really difficult pregnancy with a lot to fill in. And so I’m in a in a nutrient deficit, and it’s has been challenging for how how much I actually need, like, how much rest and how much renourishment. And I think one thing that, doing this work has taught me or is teaching me, definitely not there yet, is to be in honor of a fluctuating baseline of my needs. So it’s not the same every day. And and to be able to meet that instead of having, like, this overarching plan to follow, has been it’s the it’s the flexibility that that is so difficult for me. My closest is called me, like, a type a hit e. Like, I’m really like, pretty annoying. And I always have a
Ali Shapiro [01:29:31]:
plan. So, and I will
Tiffany [01:29:34]:
always do it to the end. So, this has given me a lot of permission to meet myself in the in the moment and be like, yeah. Today, I don’t I don’t need to do it. To To to circle back to what you just said about, like, do you have to do the same touchings every day? Now I don’t. Or if if I do, that there can be a little bit more. They’re more malleable. And, I can achieve a certain sense of achieve is a terrible word, achieve like that. I can, experience amount of satisfaction, or okayness or even humor, like light around checking the boxes where, the perfection has been softened a lot.
Tiffany [01:30:27]:
And that feels
Jacqui [01:30:28]:
that feels perfect, actually.
Tiffany [01:30:30]:
That it feels like I’m I’m, like, assessing a different concept of right and good and perfect and being able to orient towards, feels good. Orient towards feels good and set up is good by whomever’s my own control is reality. So that was a long way to know what you’re saying.
Jacqui [01:31:01]:
It’s allowed me to be present.
Ali Shapiro [01:31:05]:
Well, and I love that you said what feels good because what feels good often isn’t restrictive. Right? It’s not it’s not totally expansive. It’s not totally restricted, but it’s flexible of what feels good. And, know, what kicked off this entire episode was me saying, like, how I eat today would have felt restrictive to me 10 years ago, but it doesn’t feel restricted because it feels good with my menopausal postpartum body. It feels good, you know? And so I think I just love that you said that. It’s like, that’s the orientation what feels good.
Tiffany [01:31:38]:
I I do wanna say that, restriction can feel good when it’s not harmful. You know, like, it’s not always so harmful to have, like, a boundary, I guess. But maybe boundaries isn’t quite the right word, but but to have, like, to to not be just completely unmoored and unchetered and just not grounded in something. Like, there there is something sometimes, and you you just have to say, like, enough to know when enough is enough. Right. But enough in the sense of not not allowing yourself to have something, and enough in the sense of being able to be satisfied on a certain point. And I guess that isn’t research to me. I
Ali Shapiro [01:32:29]:
want that. Well, and that’s being in choice. Right? It’s like I’m choosing this. But I and I love that you brought that up because I think restriction ultimately is a moving target depending on your your life circumstances, how much is out of your choice. Like, you know, Jackie’s at the other end of the mother spectrum with 3 kids, like, she’s launched, you know, launched them all. And Tivity, you’re at the part where it’s like, oh my god, there’s you don’t have a lot of choice over your time right now. Right? That’s just how it goes. And so, overall, things may feel a little bit more restrictive to you, But what you’ve talked about even here and in our program is like how I show up can be part of how I’m choosing, right? Let be what feels good rather than the expectations.
Ali Shapiro [01:33:19]:
I do I can show change how I show up, even though I may start to do these five things. But there’s some agency in that. So it’s finding the choice where we can when we can. But it’ll shift based on life phase and all that stuff. So thank you. I love that what feels good. Jackie, what about you? What feels more expansive?
Jacqui [01:33:44]:
Yeah. Oh, I I could say ditto, to a lot of what Tiffany said. And what what, is occurring to me is that for the first time, probably since, you know, before I started restricting, like, 12 years old or whatever, I finally am at peace with what feels good. Because for so long, I assumed what feels good is you’re doing something wrong. If you feel good, you’re lazy. You’re not meeting some type of goal. It’s it’s so interesting. I’ve always kind of, you know, pushed off what feels good because, you know, I thought I was doing something wrong.
Jacqui [01:34:27]:
So, so that’s different. And I’m also, I love, I don’t know the words. I’m sure there’s a, there’s a word for it, but, but that circular growth, you know, that,
Ali Shapiro [01:34:41]:
expansion,
Jacqui [01:34:41]:
knowing that expansion, that is what I have received in in in food part and in the emotion part and in my confidence. You know, I’m realizing that where I am isn’t linear. You know what, that I have, I have so much life that I lived and it all’s, it’s all attached to each other in a circle. And, that whatever I think I did wrong in the past or whatever, whatever. It, it it’s, it wasn’t wrong. It was learning, you know? And, today, you know, even today, just the way I talked to my family is different. I mean, and again, I kind of feel like, oh, I don’t wanna make it sound like, oh, you know, I’ve arrived. Whatever.
Jacqui [01:35:36]:
Or, you know, Somehow I have the secret or whatever it is. And I’m just living that feeling of just rather than planning or looking back, I’m I’m more so now living in the moment. And it’s it doesn’t feel always feel good, but it but it can feel good and not feel good at the same time now. Now I can feel like, oh my god, this is just a messy, messy time. But I also feel a little bit more stable, little bit more self trusting. You know, and it’s interesting. I’ll just throw this one last thing in there. Our family’s going through a big change.
Jacqui [01:36:21]:
My mother-in-law is very sick. So, we’re going through that and, you know, she has probably days or weeks. She’s definitely a huge mother figure to me and really stepped in without her knowing it, so much where my mother kind of split, you know, she really provided a lot of mothering to me and, and, you know, gave me a good, an example of what it’s like to, to be a good mother. So she’ll be leaving this earth soon. And, what’s happening is that a lot of what I’ve realized or what a lot of what I thought the dynamics of that family for a long time I thought were wrong. But now that she’s she’s sharing a lot more, and really validating a lot of what I thought was wrong in my own thinking. So, I’m getting such a strength from that. So, yeah.
Jacqui [01:37:32]:
Well, I kinda feel like that’s such a private thing, but it’s important, you know? I don’t want to bring like my, my husband’s family into this, but, it’s part of my life. So, and, and, and I, you know, I entered that family and such is in the nick of time because, of course they’re not perfect, but they’re incredibly loving and spiritual. And, you know, all of the they’re just incredible people. So, that’s just another stage of life, you know?
Ali Shapiro [01:38:12]:
Yeah. Well, and how powerful to really be able to be present in it because death and grieving is not something our culture does. And so I think even like you said, it’s not always comfortable, But to be able to be present for all of it, it’s like, yeah. Yeah, Jackie. You’re present for all of it.
Jacqui [01:38:32]:
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [01:38:36]:
I’ll be thinking of you guys. That’s a Thank you. A lot, and I know you can hold it.
Jacqui [01:38:43]:
Yeah. Oh, Ken. Thanks, Abby.
Ali Shapiro [01:38:49]:
Of course. Of course. Well, we’re gonna wrap up. I don’t know. Is there anything I didn’t ask you that you both wanna say or share before before we end our our restriction episode, which I think we covered so much ground. And I think we’re really gonna give people a lot to think about beyond this narrow idea that it’s just about restricting food. And then if you’re restricting food, it’s about the food versus why am I using an overall strategy of restriction in my life right now? That then makes like we kicked off kind of Jackie full circle is going to backfire, right? And like those restrictions strategy we talked at the top of the episode just don’t work, which is true and there’s more to the story. So thank you both for sharing and opening up, your hearts and lives and your process to listeners.
Tiffany [01:39:47]:
I know
Ali Shapiro [01:39:47]:
people are gonna get
Jacqui [01:39:47]:
a lot out of this.
Ali Shapiro [01:39:49]:
So thank you so much.
Jacqui [01:39:51]:
Much, Ellie, for just, just doing what you do.
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