Our Body Stories series is back with another installment of my friend Sas Petherick’s intentional weight loss journey.
We’re three months in now, and she’s discovering how her new routines are integrating into her daily life and reshaping her identity in the process.
Tune in to hear us unpack the emotional body, the power of habits, and how to actually stop treating food as an escape.
We discuss:
- Self-authoring and redefining what it means to “work out”
- How to cultivate self-compassion without resignation
- Ways that Sas is handling “bad days” without turning to food as an escape
- Rated of Perceived Exertion (RPE) & the reasons we underestimate our ability
- Why support from others is so important
- The Kardashians’ new food product
- How much weight Sas has lost so far (stick around to the end for that!)
More about our guest:
Sas Petherick believes that healing our self-doubt is one of the most important contributions we can make to ourselves, our families, our work, and the world.
Sas holds a Master’s degree from Oxford, and her research on self-doubt was published in the International Journal of Coaching and Mentoring. She has developed an evidence-based, trauma-informed, ICF-accredited coaching methodology for cultivating self-belief.
For over a decade, Sas has coached with hundreds of women experiencing self-doubt in their professional and personal lives. Sas hosts the top 1% rated self-doubt podcast Courage & Spice which has enjoyed over half a million downloads. She is also an accomplished speaker and has developed coaching workshops and programmes for clients like BBC Worldwide and Pinterest. Her writing has appeared in numerous magazines.
After 25 years in the UK, Sas currently lives by the beach in Tāmaki Makaurau, Auckland, with her partner Ash and pooch Bohdi, imagining a post-capitalist world, exploring consciousness, and listening to obscure UFO podcasts.
Connect with Sas Petherick:
Mentioned in this episode:
- 291. How to Lose Weight AND Love Yourself (because you can do both!) with Sas Petherick [Body Series #1]
- 295. “We’re the Brave Ones” — Discipline vs Devotion, Macros & Being “Sporty” with Sas Petherick [Body Stories Series #2]
Connect with Ali & Insatiable:
Transcript
Ali Shapiro [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Insatiable, the podcast where we discuss the intersection of food, psychology, and culture.
Sas Petherick [00:00:10]:
Really owning that radical self responsibility has been quite big for me. Like, just no one can do this for me. It’s my job. These are my feelings. So it’s my job to feel them.
Ali Shapiro [00:00:29]:
I’m your host, Allie Shapiro, an integrated health coach, thirty two year and counting cancer survivor, and have radically healed my relationship with food and my body. And for the past seventeen years, I’ve been working with clients individually, in group programs, and in company settings to do the same. Welcome. The information in this podcast should not be considered personal, individual, or medical advice. The third installment of our body series with Sass Petherick is back today. In this third episode, we pick up on the third month of Sass’s journey of trying to support her heart health by losing weight, particularly fat loss. This episode was such a delight. I didn’t know where we were going to go, but what emerged in the episode is this idea of our emotional bodies and how so many of us are disconnected from that and how that influences our health, our emotional eating, and whether or not we take care of ourselves in a way that we need to be.
Ali Shapiro [00:01:35]:
We also touched on the importance of acknowledging our emotions, how self compassion doesn’t have to mean resignation and in fact can be a superpower. And we get an update from SAS on her weight loss, her progress, her her expectations as things unfold. And also, I found out the Kardashians have a new food product. Stay tuned to the end. If you don’t know about this either. Great episode. Enjoy. We also mentioned in the episode at the end, how much this is the great feedback we’ve been getting from this series.
Ali Shapiro [00:02:11]:
And if again, I just want to mention, if you have questions you want us to talk about based on what’s come up or your own questions, please reach out to SAS or me. Our contact information will be in the show notes, but let us know. We’re doing this to mostly be helpful and we have so much fun together, but really to be helpful. So let us know if there’s anything that you want us to discuss based on what we shared in the episodes. Alright.
Sas Petherick [00:02:39]:
Enjoy.
Ali Shapiro [00:02:45]:
Miss Sass, we’re like just getting right into it. We haven’t even warmed up each other. So
Sas Petherick [00:02:49]:
Well, it’s our third call on this podcast and, like, eight hundred and fifty sixth call in real life. So we don’t probably need in the warm up. You know?
Ali Shapiro [00:02:59]:
Right. Right. So how have you been since the last time we we’ve chatted?
Sas Petherick [00:03:03]:
Like, a big mix, like everybody. Right? So what I’m noticing is like, I feel like there’s been, like, a real identity shift over the last few weeks. I’m no longer thinking very much about what I’m doing. Like, it’s always like it’s integrating and much faster than I ever expected as well. I think I mentioned on the last episode that I’m I sort of starting to, like, have less of a debate, you know, am I gonna work out today or what am I gonna eat today? All of that, the kind of pragmatic stuff. I was very much like, oh, how do I fit this in? And now it’s like, this is on my calendar. This is what I do. Now working out six days a week, which is astonishing to me.
Sas Petherick [00:03:53]:
But also just how much it’s like, oh, that’s just what I do now.
Ali Shapiro [00:03:58]:
Yeah. One thing, where both of our work overlaps is this idea of self authoring. Right? And so in self authoring is kind of having more choice, in my opinion, how you define things, including yourself. And so when you say working out six days a week, how are you defining working out now versus maybe how you defined it before the start of this?
Sas Petherick [00:04:22]:
Well, so I love a bit of measurement. Like I really love the dopamine hits from my kind of daily goals really keep me on top of this. But so with my coach, I have a kind of step target of at least 7,000 steps a day, which is just sort of natural activity. So it’s not that hard to fit that in. Right? If you maybe do one twenty minute walk a day, you know, just even if you’re dropping the kids off at school or if you’re walking around a supermarket, like, you can fit that in quite easily. But I think because I’m aware of that and because I’m enjoying being active, I’m hitting, like, 10,000, 12 thousand steps a day without much effort. I have a couple of strength training sessions like full body, and I just alternate those. I’m doing it three times a week, and I’m also learning how to run because for the last sort of three or four months, maybe longer, I’ve been joining my partner at Park Run.
Sas Petherick [00:05:33]:
He’s a runner. He loves running and is a volunteer there and has been part of that community for years. And yeah he ran a marathon last year running’s like for his mental health he loves it and I’ve never really understood the point of running unless you’re being chased by a bear. But I’ve been going to Parkrun and walking it on a Saturday morning. Beautiful, like, volunteer run community walk every Saturday all over the world. Highly recommend to anyone listening. And I’ve been walking Parkrun for the last three or four months. And I thought, wouldn’t it be cool to run it? Like, I wonder if I could run for five k.
Sas Petherick [00:06:08]:
And it just feels like a fun challenge. So I’ve been doing couch to five k on the on my kind of rest days through strength training. And I fully expected to feel really tired and, like, overwhelmed, and it’s too much. It’s half an hour. I can fit that in my day. It’s fine. You know? So I’ve now got this real lovely balance of strength training and kind of, you know, getting a bit puffed, but it’s it’s not at a level that feels really uncomfortable or like, I just wanna cry on my car afterwards. You know? So, yeah, I’m enjoying it.
Ali Shapiro [00:06:45]:
Well and I think that’s the big difference that I wanna point out because typically in diet culture or even anti diet culture, right? Working out tends to be defined as hard. It has to be sweaty. You have to want to reward yourself with food afterwards for doing it right. Like I deserve this because I slogged through this like sixty minute bootcamp. I hated. And what I’m hearing is this like transcendent include, like, I still like my dopamine hit from knowing that I’m doing it. I still have some numbers I’m tracking. And what I’m adding in is that it actually feels good.
Ali Shapiro [00:07:24]:
And I think that’s a huge difference of how I hear you defining working out now as, like, this feels good.
Sas Petherick [00:07:32]:
And I think the bit that is shifting my identity is the interesting piece because I now love going to the gym and working out. Like, that feels really fun to me. I and and, don’t get me wrong. I’ve never really enjoyed exercise ever in my life. Like I was always, you know, I always had a sick note for PE class. I developed breasts, quite large breasts, very young and I always felt self conscious and I never wanted to exercise to draw attention to myself because hashtag teenage boys are horrible. And I think as well I was the smart kid in my family. My brother was the, you know, the athlete.
Sas Petherick [00:08:13]:
He was the sporty kid. So I was kind of assigned that role and let that be my identity for a long time. And even though I’ve gone through periods in my life where I have engaged in exercise and I quite enjoy team sports like like netball and indoor netball and stuff like that. It fits more social, but I’ve never been someone who found pleasure in movement and exercise. Always just felt like a real faff and, like, you’re going for a walk, where are you going? You know, like, and why? You know, like, I I would kind of get in my head about it a lot. And so I’ve I’m very much have not identified as somebody who exercises for most of my life, and I’ve kind of judged from the sidelines, like anyone who’s that into it must not be very smart. You know, like that kind of protect self protection y stuff. But now what I’m finding is if you can find something that you love, that you really genuinely enjoy and also like you might need to experiment with what you don’t enjoy, Like, I will never be happy having someone yell at me at a class.
Sas Petherick [00:09:27]:
And I don’t love stuff where it’s you feel really overwhelmed and you’ve got to manage weights and there’s music playing and there’s people around you. Like, that kind of overstimulus just makes me feel quite panicked. So I don’t I don’t even wanna join an exercise class. But give me a program and let me work out at my own pace on my own, and I’m just in heaven. The thing that I found is now that I’ve got like a really great like joy for this movement the reason that it’s totally changing how I see myself is because in order for me to really enjoy that I’ve got to be well fed. I’ve got to be well nourished. I have got to be well rested to have the energy to do it. And so that means that I have got to take exquisite care of myself nutritionally, and that’s gotta be a mix of joy and fuel, all of that good stuff.
Sas Petherick [00:10:26]:
So it’s changing my relationship with food. It also requires me to have boundaries around, you know, my time particularly, but also around, like, what’s okay and not okay for me anymore. And that might be different to who I was three months ago. Everyone can get on board, like, it’ll be alright, you know. And I’ve got goals that I wanna hit every day with my macros to make sure that I’m well nourished and able to work out. And so that means sometimes I’m gonna be like, no, I don’t wanna do that or I don’t wanna eat that or this is a no for me. You go ahead. I’m gonna take care of myself.
Sas Petherick [00:11:00]:
Like, it’s requiring something more of me. It’s also, I think, requiring me to really tune into myself. Like, how am I feeling? Like, I’m hyper aware of my body, like twinges, aches. Am I injured or am I just, you know, is this just the, you know, muscle recovery? All of that is like I’m so much more aware of myself. And that means I’m way more aware of my emotional life as well. Like, so much more than I was a few months ago. And so I’m processing emotions more. I’m realizing that actually, you know, working out is a great way to do that, but I need to feel things too.
Sas Petherick [00:11:44]:
I’m very good at, like, thinking my feelings. I’m so good at naming the nuance of the feeling. Like, is this irritation or is this rage? Like, I can get right into it. But I’m thinking about it. I’m naming it. I’m not really feeling it. And what I’m getting much better at is actually just going, can you just feel this? Like, you don’t have to even name it. You don’t have to think about it.
Sas Petherick [00:12:06]:
Can you let the sensations in your body happen? And there is so much, like, peaceful power that comes from an ability to do that. You know? And I say this to my clients all the time, like, nobody died from feeling a feeling, but you sometimes think you might. And I’m really taking my own medicine. You know, so there’s lots of stuff going on for me personally right now. And so, you know, it’s just felt like over the last month, particularly wave after wave of emotion. And I’ve just sat in it and not tried to numb out or comfort myself with food or, you know, there’s old patterns that no longer feel that helpful. It’s like I’m shifting how I respond to those emotions. And so all of that together, like, you know, what this requires of me and what I’m learning about my capability, it feels like, yeah, I’m just lifting some heavy things a few times a week.
Sas Petherick [00:13:06]:
It feels revolutionary in terms of how I see myself. Like, it’s a new level of authoring.
Ali Shapiro [00:13:15]:
Oh my god. You said so much stuff. And I wanna go back and comment on. But the first thing about thinking your feelings, so I, you know, I’m creating this. It’ll eventually be a self study, but right now I’m running it live. It’s the your emotional eating blueprint. And the the first week is, look, I just want you to check-in with yourself because we’re all really good at thinking our feelings. Right? A lot of my clients will be like, I feel like a bobblehead.
Ali Shapiro [00:13:40]:
I don’t know if you have these things in The UK or New Zealand, but it’s just like, you know, all head and then you’re disconnected from your body. And this one woman. Oh, my God. I just I adore her. She was like, you know, a week ago, she was chronicling how she was eating at night because I talk about it’s not about the nighttime when people are eating, but it’s when your your feelings actually have a space to bubble up because feeling your feelings require safety. It requires space and time. And she’s like, before this exercise and I, we, I talk in the program about what the triggers are. She’s like, as I’m sitting there eating by myself, like, now I can name how I’m feeling, but a week ago, I would have told you I was fine.
Ali Shapiro [00:14:24]:
And I was like, yes. That is that emotional body that we for metaphorical terms, So many of us are disconnected from that. Right. And it’s like, and then when we finally have space, no wonder, you know, my work is all about like, of course, you feel unsupported with those feelings. And so you eat to stimulate attachment chemicals in a sense of being cared for. But isn’t it wild that, like, we can have this whole other life going on in terms of emotions and not being aware
Sas Petherick [00:14:55]:
of it. It’s like it happens kind of off to the side And you’re sort of like, oh, something is happening over there. I wonder where there is chocolate over here. Like, that was for me. It’s like, I just I think that’s gonna feel uncomfortable or is inconvenient. I don’t want to be feeling this right now. So I’m gonna fight that reality by trying to escape it in some way. And for for me and for anyone who eats emotionally, you know, to to manage emotions, Like, I learned to do that at a very young age.
Sas Petherick [00:15:27]:
Like, food has never let me down. Food’s amazing. Like, if you are feeling, you know, sad or tired or bored or lonely or any of the kind of major stimulating, you know, emotions that tend to lead us towards trying to comfort ourselves, then, you know, food is amazing for that. Like, it makes so much sense. I always used to say to folks, you know, who talked to me about getting sober like alcohol is amazing. Like it is so fun. Like hello, the best the best night ever always involves some drinking. Right? The thing that happens though is that we think, well, a little bit feels good, so more is gonna feel even better.
Sas Petherick [00:16:12]:
And actually, at some point, you hit the place of diminishing returns and, you know, you may find you’ve actually just kind of, in my case, set your life on fire accidentally over some tequila shots. Or you, you know, you you behave in ways that take you away from yourself rather than further towards who you wanna be or who you’re becoming. And I think there’s such parallels for me around food as well. Maybe I have that gene that is, like, gets a bit obsessed with things and loves to find those comforts. But what I’m finding is actually I have quite a lot of built in resilience from like healthy resilience from being sober where I do kind of have a way of saying to myself, honey, I think that’s that’s enough now. Like, you don’t probably need that, you know, or how are you gonna feel after that? Like, I’m I’m quite good now. I never used to be good at consequences, but now I’m like, you know, like healthy consequences. How do I wanna feel in an hour? If I eat this, you know, is that actually gonna gonna take the feeling away? What’s it gonna is it gonna break up more feelings that are uncomfortable? Will I feel a bit of, like, disappointment on myself if I do that? Or do I just want it? In which case, have it, you know, and be joyful in it.
Sas Petherick [00:17:29]:
But it’s like really thinking about my emotional experience from what might drive me in unhealthy ways to to kind of overeat or comfort myself with food and giving myself options for what else could I do. And the self talk around that is is quite compassionate. It’s very, like, it’s not judgmental or making me wrong. And that’s long practice, Ellie, too. I mean, I know, you know, that’s something that I work with clients around all the time. And, you know, please don’t think that that happens instantly. I think I’ve probably spent the last ten years really relearning how to offer myself compassion all the time. And I love that now that it’s coming up in this instance as well.
Ali Shapiro [00:18:15]:
I’m so glad you brought that up because another question that got brought up in this class and it made me think of as you are starting exercises and now you’re in a rhythm with it, but, like, there’s this difference between starting habits and stopping habits, in my opinion. So starting a habit is kind of that traditional, you know, in twenty one days, it kinda feels like the neuroplasticity neuroscience. You know, I mean, again, not to not to downplay neuroscience, but everyone’s obsessed the bro wellness culture hacking and neuroscience. And it’s like, okay. But the other half of the equation is your body’s intelligence and your body’s wisdom. And you were just describing of, like, the self talk and all that stuff. You’re calling it compassion. And what I heard in that was, like, years of learning to trust and belong to yourself.
Ali Shapiro [00:19:02]:
Right? Of, like, learning that because I think people listening would be like, well, that sounds great. Yeah. Like, I know I’m not gonna feel good in the morning, but I can’t stop doing that. And it’s and this is what my work is all about is, like, how do you develop that compassionate place so that you can actually follow through on what you wanna do? But so many people come to it from a, what’s wrong with you? Why are you doing this? Not this makes so much sense. I kind of almost wanted to slow that down because I remember on a Voxer conversation, you were saying there was one day you got that, like, tax bill, you know, from The UK. I think there was, like, something with your house in Bristol, and you just didn’t wanna go to the gym. And you were like, but I didn’t eat my feelings. And you said, I feel like I walked through a portal or a doorway.
Ali Shapiro [00:19:52]:
Can you remember, like, exactly again, there was this whole built in self trust, self belief that you’ve been working on for years, but what does that actually look like in practice?
Sas Petherick [00:20:05]:
So, yeah, I just had one of those shit days from, you know, where it’s just felt like everything was going wrong and couldn’t kinda catch a break. And I think my usual or kind of learned response, like, how I would norm how I would you have usually dealt with it is to sort of say, okay. What can we do? Right? Like, let’s just sort it out. And I’m very I’m pretty good. I think like most I don’t know. I hesitate to stereotype with the word type a, but I’m I’m quite an over functioner. Like, I find comfort and safety in taking action when things are going wrong. That feels better to me.
Sas Petherick [00:20:44]:
Whereas under functioners tend to want to dwell on the thoughts and feelings around it. Right? Like, that feels safer than taking actions. Like, pause, wait. Nobody moves, nobody gets hurt. Whereas for me, it’s like, I just gotta keep this ship afloat, you know. And that’s from, you know, a childhood where I was like, who the hell are these people? Are they seriously in charge? Because they don’t seem to know how to do this, so I’ll do it. You know? So I learned from a very young age that someone has to be in charge. So my usual response is to go, okay.
Sas Petherick [00:21:14]:
Right. What action do I need to take? What needs to happen? And I I actually was just, like, hesitant to do that. Like, I I sort of felt like I just need to really feel like I’m I’m so disappointed that this is happening and I’m overwhelmed by it. Like, it feels like a lot to be dealing within a day. And so I was like, okay. Those emotions are there. And I just sort of, like, started talking to myself in my head. Anyone who works on their own knows that you often have a little monologue going on.
Sas Petherick [00:21:48]:
And I was just like, oh, honey, what would be the best thing to do right now? And I thought, oh, I just I’m gonna go make myself a coffee and have some water and just think about what’s the best approach here. And I just thought, oh, actually, on the on my way to the kitchen while waiting for the kettle to boil, I was like, oh, I just wanna have a cry. Like, I just feel really I feel really sad that this is happening. Like, it’s really overwhelming, and I don’t kinda know what to do right now. So I just let myself do that and, you know, I I really love, like, that feeling of just rubbing your own arms, like it feels like you’re kinda hugging yourself. And I thought, oh, okay. I just I need a hug. So that’s what I actually need to give myself right now is, like, what is the equivalent of a hug? You know? What does that look and feel like? Food is the escape from the realness for me, And I didn’t wanna escape it.
Sas Petherick [00:22:45]:
I just wanted to be with it. And so, you know, I was saying things to myself like, wow, this is a pickle. Like, okay. We don’t really know what to do quite yet. And I say we because I think we all contain multitudes, so I always talk to myself as a we. But I’m like, okay. We don’t know what to do. We’re a bit overwhelmed.
Sas Petherick [00:23:09]:
What feels doable right now? Like, what feels okay? And I thought, oh, okay. I’d sent off one email and I about the house and I did one thing to just check on my tax stuff, and then I got in touch with my accountant in The UK. And I thought, okay. That’s all I can do for now. Because often we think, gotta sort the whole thing out, and then the worry kicks in. And it was like, actually, what I can do right now is take care of myself. So I’m not gonna radically alter my day and set my, you know, timetable on its head. I’m just gonna carry on.
Sas Petherick [00:23:45]:
And so I I was like, I do wanna go to the gym. I think that would be nice to be almost an escape. Right? That’s my break, which is, you know, the irony. And so it became like this real moment of when shit hits fan, I don’t have to make it worse. I don’t have to add to it. And one of the concepts I talk about a lot with my clients is that the difference between clean pain and dirty pain. And clean pain and this comes from ACT, acceptance and commitment therapy. Clean pain is just you feel the feelings like it’s like if you cut your hand slicing tomatoes, you go, oh, the pain of that.
Sas Petherick [00:24:31]:
Like, you feel that and you’re like, oh, take care of myself in that moment. Right? If you, you know, something happens, someone gives you some critical feedback, you’re like, oh, okay. I’m gonna feel that what comes up around that. Right? Dirty pain is adding in a whole lot of meaning that is often from old stories. Right? I’ve cut my finger. I’m so stupid and clumsy. I always do things like this. It is because I’m making a salad.
Sas Petherick [00:25:02]:
For God’s sake, I can’t do anything right. Right. That’s dirty pain. That’s what it sounds like. This person has said, you know, that, I have a tendency to be blunt. You know, you get that feedback at work. It’s like, that means I’m so bossy and awful and no one loves me here, and maybe I should look for another job. Right? We kind of go into those dirty pain stories really quickly, like, because we’re trying to protect ourselves from this discomfort.
Sas Petherick [00:25:27]:
And, you know, what I’m always kind of encouraging my clients to recognize is when are you adding in unnecessary dirty pain? You’re just muddying the water. And I think that’s what I was really able to do in that moment was stay in the clean pain. Stay in the clean pain. It didn’t add any stories to it. It didn’t make it mean anything. I didn’t flip back into, you know, maybe some old ideas or feedback or, you know, messages I’ve had in the past, old stories. I just just stayed in the moment and, and the clean pain and, and my body. And that was the portal.
Ali Shapiro [00:26:07]:
I love that. Like I need a hug and the physicality of that because in my work, you know, it’s, it’s rooted in the heroine’s journey, which is like this wounded feminine. And we often think of that as represented by our mothers, but not always. But I think so many people who struggle with food issues, there wasn’t that attunement in growing up and the witnessing. And that’s one of the needs we have when we’re struggling is just witnessing it. This is hard. This is disappointing. And that’s what you did.
Ali Shapiro [00:26:37]:
Like when you have access to the embodied state, it’s revolutionary. It sounds so simple, but when we’re like disconnected, we have to first witness that. And then it’s like, then the emotion. Right? It wants to be in motion can start to shift. So I just wanna like name that. Right? Because I’m gonna think my feelings right now. But for people listening, like the very first step is what SAS is describing around compassion is just acknowledge that you’re struggling versus how many of us are like, I just need to get through this or let me create the perfect 10 step plan to figure this out. So the other thing that you said about is like, I’m a typical over functioner.
Ali Shapiro [00:27:19]:
And you you gave the binaries of over functioning, under functioning. Right. And it made me think about our stories are often binary, black and white, either or. And so many clients were like, I’m all or nothing. And I’m like, no, that is a protection pattern. It’s a developmental way of thinking. And you can evolve out of that. But what I hear you doing right there in the before I jump into over functioning mode, you’re kind of integrating some of the what you might have judged the same way that you’re integrating the I’m either smart or sporty.
Ali Shapiro [00:27:52]:
You kinda skimmed over that, and that was something I wanted to circle back to being like, I’m gonna judge those people because I wanna get into that too. But going back to that, it’s like, oh, I might judge the under functioners as, like, not having their shit together and just in their feelings. I call it homeopathic doses. Right? I need small doses of actually not over functioning. I can get to the function part, but what shifted for you when you did a little bit of the what you might call under functioning, but you were actually in your feelings?
Sas Petherick [00:28:26]:
With this, I feel less way less judgy around it. Like, I think for me, my personal work over the last ten years has been, you know, how do I get to wholeness? How do I get to be a whole person? And what I think happened in that moment was recognizing, like, I have a great well developed resource of functioning. Like if you give me a problem to solve, I’m in my happy place because I feel purposeful and I’ve got a plan and I love to be in motion and that’s easy for me, you know? And so that becomes then a default response to almost everything, right, if I let it. But I also recognize that I have other resources. What I’ve really been doing over the last particularly the last few years is, you know, that that kind of sacred pause. Like, before I respond, what resources can I pull out? Like, what actually would be the most healthiest? Like, what is my healthy adult self advising me to do here? Like, the wisest part of me that has only, you know, my best interests at heart and wants me to thrive. Like, what what is she telling me? And and that that used to be quite a deliberate thing. Like, you know, when I first kind of came across parts work about eight years ago, and I started to really look at the different models for that.
Sas Petherick [00:29:52]:
And and it really makes sense to me. Right? This idea that we have all these mini selves and parts of us that come out in different moments. That makes total sense to me. And I think integrating all of those over the few the last few years has meant, oh, I I have these resources within me that if I can pause, the right one will bubble up or at least the the the best in the moment one will bubble. And so I know this sounds a bit I’m hesitant to kind of share this because it sounds a bit like cliched and coachy, but I do have these conversations with myself. And I do also have the part of me that’s like, man, you sound like an asshole, life coach, you know? So I just wanna keep it real for folks. Like, I’m not, you know because some of this stuff can sound really, like, therapy speaking. It does my head in, so I can’t even imagine for someone who’s hearing this sort of stuff for the first time might be going, Jesus, they must be fun at parties.
Sas Petherick [00:30:52]:
But there is something I think about that self talk that at first, it’s gonna sound really weird and you might feel a bit self conscious about it. And and I know I did. I was like, remember a meditation teacher told me once that your natural state is loving kindness and peace in your body, like, loving kindness in your mind and peace in your body. And I was like, brother, you have no idea what life is like outside of meditation world. But I do think that you can get there. Right? And the steps there are, you know, if you it’s like if you want to build self esteem, do esteemable things that you witness in yourself. If you wanna speak to yourself with you know, if you wanna have a a loving, compassionate relationship with yourself, speak to yourself in that way. Like, I do think there is something about practicing that, and that’s definitely been my experience.
Sas Petherick [00:31:48]:
So, yeah, it is a little clunky at first. It’s that, okay, you’ve got some choices. What are we gonna do? And sometimes it can feel a little bit clunky, but it does, I think, integrate. You do get to a place of, you know, what I call more wholeness. And this isn’t about perfectionism. It’s more about, like, right now, what is what’s gonna help me the most? Like, what’s probably the most helpful thing I can do for myself? And sometimes, if you do, like, pause and listen, you will be surprised. You know? Like, sometimes you do just need a good cry or a hug or to drink some water, have a biscuit. You know?
Ali Shapiro [00:32:28]:
I’m so glad you brought that up because last Friday, I was watching this practitioner’s video around sleep. And for people listening, I’ve been struggling with my sleep for the past four years. And this year, I’ve I’ve slept maybe half the year. And she was talking about kind of all the things you should do. And I’m like, I’m doing all of them. I’m doing all of them. And and then she came up to stress. Right? And how, like, stress is so when you lose estrogen and progesterone as a buffer.
Ali Shapiro [00:32:55]:
And I was just like first of all, I cried in the I mean, I was watching the recording because I couldn’t stay up at night to watch it, but I was crying because I felt like someone had seen me to your point. And then I was just like, motherfucker. I’m overfunctioning in my attempts. Like, she’s telling me not to overfunction, and I’m overfunctioning to try to get this sleep thing right. And I just like, like, I cried and laughed at the same time. And I was like, that’s that clunky part. And I have done this work long enough to be like, okay, Ali, you don’t have to do anything right now. Like, just but I was so and I was in a funky mood all weekend.
Ali Shapiro [00:33:31]:
Carlos was like, is something wrong? Did I do something? And I’m like, well, I just watched this webinar and I feel like, yes, people are like, oh, I’m sorry. You’re not sleeping well and all this stuff. But she laid out all of the physiology, like all that mental health struggle, struggles that can happen. And I’m like, I’ve been keeping it all together, you know, and and I’m still not quite sure, but something did shift and then I’m like, oh, I’m trying to, like, get all my steps in, but sometimes it feels like it’s straining more than nurturing. So it’s been like, oh, the layer is revealing itself versus me having to, like, think my way or function my way to it. And it’s kinda like you said, like, when I get in my body and I stay in that sacred pause, this intuitive emotional body wisdom can often arise. Like, we can receive it rather than having to, you know, figure it out because as you and I have chatted, not everything is figureoutable.
Sas Petherick [00:34:30]:
Marie was wrong about that, actually. Yeah. Just naming Marie Forleodia who bless her. I think you’re right, though. There’s something about that intuitive wisdom. And what I think we miss often when and we’ve talked about this a little bit in our conversations so far, is that we’ll often outsource our wisdom. Right? We we could look for the program, the coach, the diet, whatever, the the regime, the protocol that will do our thinking and feeling for us. And sometimes there is like an education or experience gap.
Sas Petherick [00:35:07]:
I know, you know, I’m learning so much about different things, but I’m really clear about what my coach can’t do for me, and she can’t feel my feelings. She can’t make choices for me in the moment. She can’t also feel, like, the pride and the joy, you know, from taking good care of myself. So I think, you know, really owning that radical self responsibility has been quite big for me. Like, just no one can do this for me. It’s my job. These are my feelings. So it’s my job to feel them, you know.
Sas Petherick [00:35:48]:
And some days that’s gonna feel like too much, but most of the time, I can do that. It’s funny. There is this this concept I’m learning about called the rate of perceived exertion, which is when you think you can’t lift something any further. And that, you know, we’re always aiming for a seven eight. You know? It’s like when you get the kind of, you know, the last couple of pushes should be or pulls should be, you know, you make a stupid face because it’s like, oh, this is really hard. You know? And I think what I’m learning is the rate of perceived exertion will often default to comfort, and we underestimate what we can do. And I think that applies not just to, you know, my shoulder presses, but to what I can feel. You know, underestimate my capacity to feel stuff.
Sas Petherick [00:36:39]:
That’s difficult. I might think I’m at an eight, but I’m really at a five. I can feel this. It’s okay.
Ali Shapiro [00:36:47]:
I love that you’re like, no one can feel my feelings for me and everything. And at least in my work, one of the things I’ve learned that we need to be resourced is people in it with us as that support system. So that gives us the sense of safety to then take the risk to feel our feelings and try new actions. Can you talk about how you had asked Ash for help in, like, just really struggling with this? And then you have also hired a coach who is teaching you a nourishing experience because I think so many people just are like, I need someone to help me, and they don’t think about how this person is gonna support them. And is it gonna be nurturing, or is it gonna be some of the same old same old?
Sas Petherick [00:37:30]:
Yeah. Well, I think one of the reasons I wanted to work with Sarah is because when we met, it was really obvious to me that she I mean, she just said, look, the most uninteresting thing about you is how much you weigh. Like, I just couldn’t care less. And I’d like I was like, I’m intrigued. Say more. Her whole approach was very, like, compassion led and and very much, like, we’re in a temporary state of over the next few months. This is a temporary state to get you into that, you know, through that sort of fat loss, you know, to a to recomposition your body so that you can then, like, spend the rest of your life having fun with living your life. Right? Like, so for her, this whole process is like a means to an end.
Sas Petherick [00:38:25]:
How can you know, what can she teach me about the pragmatics of it all? But also like the witnessing and the support and the you know, we we communicate mostly on WhatsApp and she leaves voice notes and messages and and I share data every day through an app around, you know, my activity and where how I’m feeling and stuff. And so, you know, like, I weigh myself every day and send it through the app. And every week, she comes back and goes, here’s the average loss. Here’s what it was, you know, a month ago. So I don’t even think about I just think about I’m gathering data. I used to have a real thing about the scales. I was one of those people that, like, dramatically got rid of all scales of my house. Now I’m like, oh, this is really good data.
Sas Petherick [00:39:16]:
And it’s so interesting to me how my body weight will increase at different times of the month because, you know, I’m still having a completely full cycle and not really in touching menopause at 50 nearly 52, which is a mixed blessing. But I can see like, oh, those weeks, my weight will go up and then this, it will come down. But over the last three months, it is trending down all really consistently. And I just use weight as as an example because I think that’s the bit that we get caught up in. But for me now, it’s like one data point. And I’m thinking much more about, like, the average over the month, you know. So at the moment, I can expect to pretty predictably lose about two and a half kilos, which is about four or five pounds a month. And that is really consistent, really sustainable.
Sas Petherick [00:40:13]:
And Sarah’s there to go, okay. Let’s let’s have some fun with it. That’s just the output like it’s nothing to do with what I’m like I can’t manage that, I can’t control that. What I can do is create the conditions for that to happen and so her coaching is all about the conditions. How much fiber? How much protein? How much, you know, movement? All of that sort of stuff. And how am I feeling in all of this? And what else is going on in my life? You know, that will influence my capacity. And so all of it is very holistic. It’s not a one point thing.
Sas Petherick [00:40:48]:
And that to me feels like I’m being, like, to your language, like, witnessed and held as a whole person. Not just what, you know, old weight watchers used to do. Here’s the walk of shame up to the scale and that will determine whether you have been good or bad this week. Like this kind of support is way more nuanced and complex and interesting, you know, and more fun because it’s like, oh, I can feel my biceps now. I can feel my my quads. I know that my muscle is building. I’m excited about that. I am getting off on building a strong body.
Sas Petherick [00:41:32]:
And so all of that is so much more interesting and important to me now than, you know, the weight loss is just gonna happen because I can totally say that, you know, my body doesn’t need those stores of fat anymore because of the way I’m fueling and moving. So it’s it just becomes this process of creating the conditions for the outcome you want, but the way we create those conditions I think really really matters. And and allowing someone to be by my side and not having to do it all myself, you know, or to feel like I need to suddenly, like, become a level three personal trainer and nutritionist overnight to be able to support myself. It’s like, no. You don’t need to. We need community. We need our people. So for me, it’s just this place of allowing that being witnessed and held and and also, like, sharing with her when things are rough or I’m just not feeling it or I am kind of, like, tired.
Sas Petherick [00:42:30]:
All of that. It’s like the support from Sarah is very much, what can you do today? What would feel good to do today? Like a couple of times, I’ve just gone, I just can’t fit the gym in today or I can’t do it today. So I make a promise to myself, right, tomorrow, we just move the whole week over a day, you know, and we start again. And I think that to me has removed the option of perceived failure. Like, it does it’s like, oh, there isn’t a point where I have to fail at this. Like, I know now I’m gonna get to where I want because I’ve removed the option of failure. It’s just, you know, some sometimes, you know, you’re gonna have an off day or maybe even a week or a month if you get ill. So what? Come back into it.
Sas Petherick [00:43:18]:
You know? It’s it’s like my body is never gonna leave me. So I am never gonna leave it either. You know? Like, it’s that there is no end point. You don’t get to quit.
Ali Shapiro [00:43:31]:
I love that was just so beautiful how you explained that because I see so many people who who come to me after working with nutritionists or trainers or other coaches who have their protocol and plan. And then, like, I had one client who hired a nutritionist who was, like, all about being vegetarian. And for this client, it didn’t work. Or another client was, like, you know, I I hired this trainer, but like my kids were sick. I had bad sleep and it was like, you’re not committed, you know? And what you’re describing is like, I think we can look at it all as data and start to strip some of the meaning away from the scale if we have that healthy attachment with the support system. But I think sometimes when we’re so hard on ourselves and have such perfectionism tendencies, we then find the quote unquote support that will just reinforce that perfectionism versus saying, wait a second. Because again, when I was struggling with food and my weight, compassion’s to me sounded like weakness. I mean, this was like twenty years ago.
Ali Shapiro [00:44:33]:
Right? I’ve I’ve evolved, but it was like, compassion is self resignation.
Sas Petherick [00:44:38]:
Yeah. It’s giving up and letting yourself off the hook. Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:44:42]:
And I’m like, no. Compassion is flexibility. It’s how you beautifully said, like, I’m not leaving my body because it’s not leaving me. It’s like we’re in this together instead of we’re battling each other. So I just wanted to emphasize that because I think there I I think Sarah sounds amazing and I think she’s the exception versus the rule in terms of that. And the other thing that I loved is like, you know, I’m all about less is more. Like, let’s really focus on the root cause of things, and then you have a lot less to do because I always think of health as, like, the vehicle to where you wanna go, not the destination. And on the gram, people are out there being like, here’s my 10 step wellness routine.
Ali Shapiro [00:45:24]:
And I’m like, do you, are you on a trust fund? And this is all you’re doing all day, but then people start to then feel shame like they’ve failed their five step morning routine. Right. And it’s like, okay, wait a second. No, no, no, no, no. This is about flexibility. And, and even you talking about RPE, right? Rate of perceived perceived exertion. I love that for women, especially over 40, because you’re seven or eight is gonna be different based on where you are in your cycle, how well you slept, you know, did you have a stressful week? And, you know, so it’s, that is flexibility and that’s, what’s sustainable. So So I’ll get off my soapbox.
Ali Shapiro [00:46:01]:
But
Sas Petherick [00:46:02]:
No. Totally. And, you know, it was really interesting for me, like, when Sarah gave me my workout plans because I’ve got little videos and all of that kind of stuff in the app. And there was no weights attached, like, no kind of, you know, she didn’t give me any information. I had to fill that in myself. And I was like, well, how much should I be lifting? And she’s like, well, how much can you lift? You know? And so I had to figure that out like and she said and look you know if you’re doing a lat pull down which is the one where the bar’s at the top and you pull it down to your chest and so you’re moving most of your back and your arms it’s a great exercise. I know that when I’m in my luteal phase in my cycle where which is when my body is at its kind of weakest or the least strength, I can maybe do, like, 24 kilos like that is okay. But when I’m in my strongest phase, I can do 36.
Sas Petherick [00:47:00]:
Like I can do a full set of ten thirty six. And it’s like, oh, that feels exciting to me. Like, so I’m kind of like, coming up to what we call circle’s shit week, you know, where your weights always drop, you know, and you’re like, sucks. But it’s like you’re still doing it, but the the rate of perceived exertion is still a seven, still an eight at that time in my cycle. And at other times in my cycle, it’s a 36, but it’s still a seven eight for that period. And that just that concept has been really interesting. Like, if I’ve only got 10% to give to something and I give 10%, that’s a %. You know? So it’s like, ah, okay.
Sas Petherick [00:47:45]:
This is really this is really cool. Just as a concept, like, what’s your capacity? And I always am encouraging my clients to check-in with themselves, particularly if they’re in, like, a goal phase. Like, I’m trying to reach a goal. It’s like the first thing you do is check-in, like, how much capacity do I have today? You know? Like, what else is going on? You know? And maybe there is I’ve got twenty minutes, you know? And how much courage do you feel today? Well, maybe it’s minimum. So I’m just gonna do the easiest thing on my list. It’s still a % task done today, you know? And so I think I’m really living into that and experiencing that, you know, quite viscerally. And I think it’s such a great concept for people to to work with. Like, capacity is everything.
Sas Petherick [00:48:35]:
And when you can really be tell yourself the truth about your capacity, I think then you make space for I didn’t sleep well last night. You know, I’ve got a sick kid. Kids are always sick. Right? I’ve got, you know, I’ve got a meeting later, and I’m stressed about this. It’s like, okay. So your capacity is reduced today. What can you do with that reduced capacity? Then then it’s still a %. It’s just that, you know, it shrunk to what is possible.
Ali Shapiro [00:49:05]:
That’s why I said, I think it was in our first or second episodes. Like, I tell my clients, you’re gonna just measure momentum, not perfection because that 10%, it keeps you in the game. It keeps you in touch with your goal or it keeps you lifting. But a % when you’re at 10% is actually setting yourself up for failure in the long run, and this is the long game.
Sas Petherick [00:49:27]:
It keeps you present. Right? It keeps you in your body, in your life, in this moment rather than, I think, what we can do, particularly if we’re, you know, we have, like, body based goals, we drift off into the future or into the past very easily. Right? And they’re both kind of fantasies. What’s real is what’s your capacity right now?
Ali Shapiro [00:49:51]:
Yeah. Yeah. I remember early on in my, like, sleep struggles, I was like, you know what? Like, I have to figure out how to really take care of myself when I’m struggling because this is gonna be something that happens. And it was it sounds depressing, but it was like the reality almost like exhaled. It was like, oh, I don’t need to keep up my normal, you know, plans. It’s like, what are you gonna do when you slept three hours last night? You know, it’s like, okay. And and then you learn how to, I hate to say make the most, but you you learn how to be with reality, not the idealized version of what you’re hoping will happen. So it’s it’s a really important skill set and it’s and it’s kind of the through line I hear you saying in this whole ep, you know, episode, like my emotions are real.
Ali Shapiro [00:50:38]:
One more question before we wrap up is you said that being more embodied is really shifting your work and how you’re kind of understanding things in the world. And I have noticed with my own clients that about 80% of them have some sort of career shift after we work together. Either they go new jobs or if they’re self employed, they’re making more working less, or they go for the promotion, whatever. But being more embodied just unleashes a lot. So what is shifting? What are you noticing the connection in your work as you’re more embodied?
Sas Petherick [00:51:14]:
I think the capacity to feel things is opening up a new level of truth telling for me. Like, what am I no longer available for, and what do I want more of to be binary and there’s a spectrum in between. But I think it’s like, oh, if I’ve got the capacity to pretty much feel anything, which I am kind of edging towards, I sort of feel like, Well in my work you know I believe self doubt is not self sabotage as is often shared it’s self protection it’s always you know you trying to protect yourself from a perceived psychological risk and they’re things like failure, disappointment, conflict, rejection, all of that jazz. And what’s coming up for me now is if I’m willing to feel all of those risks, they no longer are risks. And so what does that make available for me? If I’m willing to be criticized, like, you know so, like, okay. You’re gonna criticize me, and I’m gonna be able to feel that, and it’s gonna be and I’ll be okay. It’s like, oh, what does that do in terms of not just what I am more likely to maybe share or say because I’m not afraid of criticism, but also the energy that it releases from me trying to manage people’s perception of me. Right? The truth to the question is I have not a Scooby Doo clue who I’m gonna be in a year’s time.
Sas Petherick [00:53:01]:
Right? Like, I literally do not know because this has been three months and I feel radically different inside. Like, I feel like something is emerging in me that I is new. That I don’t I don’t really know that me. It feels really exciting. I’m a bit apprehensive as well, like, I’m not really I’m sure there’ll be unintended consequences. So all to say, like, I really don’t know who I’m becoming, but I know that the going back’s never an option. Right? So so I’m going to just keep doing this and trusting that I can be with who’s emerging.
Ali Shapiro [00:53:45]:
I mean, that is embodied self authored belonging to use a technical term, but it’s the embodied I’ve got my own back. And because of that, I’m allowed to emerge because I know I’m gonna be here for me, and I’m capable. That’s so, oh my god.
Sas Petherick [00:54:04]:
Even I’m noticing, like, this my podcast is hosted on Substack, and I’ve always loved with writing, and that is really important to me. And, like, I haven’t written anything on Substack for a while. And I was thinking yesterday, oh, that’s interesting because I’m very much in my real life. And I wonder if there is a part of me that will just be less willing to play the content creation game. You know, there’s a bit of that as well. So I’m just kind of noticing, like, I actually love having a life that feels great rather than one that maybe looks, you know, sounds great, you know, to other people. Like, I’m not sort of not available for that anymore. Like, I’m a real person.
Sas Petherick [00:54:54]:
I’m gonna have real stuff going on. And so there is something about just being with myself and trusting that my people might change and that’s okay, and I can trust that my work has value. And it might look a little different as as things evolve. Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:55:16]:
Well, to get, you know, metaphorical, I mean, nature is always evolving in complexity. Right? And both of our work is rooted in what we call complexity fitness. Right? And that’s about evolution. And and that is part of, to me, when you said I’m about wholeness, to me, that’s what health is. Right? It’s vitality, it’s wholeness, and always evolving into more complex, you know, ways of being or I mean, the the the essence of your work, because it’s brilliant, will stay, and the outer trappings of it may shift and change. But yeah. Well, I’m getting my popcorn. Non GMO.
Ali Shapiro [00:55:55]:
Non GMO with with butter.
Sas Petherick [00:55:58]:
Well, did you know one of the Kardashians is now making protein popcorn? So as if end stage capitalism wasn’t the hellscape you thought it was, he has an extra little confetti on top. Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:56:12]:
This is how I I didn’t even know they were Carlos laughs. He’s like, just because you don’t follow someone doesn’t mean they’re not around him. Like, the Kardashians are still around.
Sas Petherick [00:56:20]:
They are. They are. Yeah. And now they’re selling protein popcorn.
Ali Shapiro [00:56:25]:
How do you get protein popcorn?
Sas Petherick [00:56:27]:
I have not looked into this, Ellie. I just laugh. If you were going to make an SNL skit about a Kardashian in this stage in our human evolution, this is what they would talk about. But it’s real.
Ali Shapiro [00:56:43]:
When you don’t know if it’s the onion or reality, when you’re skimming the news through your Instagram feed. Right? That’s hilarious. SAS, anything else you wanna add before we wrap up?
Sas Petherick [00:56:55]:
I would just wanna say, like, I’m getting so many, like, messages and emails and little DMs from folks who are saying that these conversations are really helpful. And so, we’re just so, you know, happy that that’s happening for folks. And, you know, please do feel free to leave a message for Ally or I. You can contact us, you know, on Subsec where my podcast is hosted and we’re both on Instagram. I’ll leave the links in the show notes below. But, yeah, do get in touch and and, you know, I I just wanna also say, like, Ally’s work around emotional eating, if this episode has brought stuff up, like, you know, go check go check Ally out. She she will take really good care of you.
Ali Shapiro [00:57:43]:
Oh, thanks, Sass. Thank you. Alright. Well, thank you. This has been great. I know this is gonna help so many people, and we’ll we’ll circle back in a month to see where you are. I was gonna ask because I do feel like the listeners are wondering, like, have you lost more weight? But I don’t know if I wanna end with that.
Sas Petherick [00:58:00]:
Yeah. Well, you know, it’s so interesting, isn’t it? So my my goal is to lose around 50 pounds, and I am 10 pounds down, just over 10 pounds down in two months. So so I think it’s gonna take about a year to get to a place where I can then start to kind of really play with definition and muscle stuff.
Ali Shapiro [00:58:21]:
But you’re 25% on the way there.
Sas Petherick [00:58:25]:
Twenty twenty to 25% of the way they are, which feels thrilling.
Ali Shapiro [00:58:29]:
Yeah. I think the I think the getting started is often the hardest part. So alright. Well, thank you. I just think people were gonna be curious. Like, does this self compassion, flexibility, and imperfection really work? Yes. It does.
Sas Petherick [00:58:44]:
So and and for me, it’s like if I can lose 50 pounds, you know, 20 odd kilos through compassion and enjoying myself, then, you know, who knows? Maybe there’ll be I’m not gonna release a program. I’m not. I’ve made that vow to you, dear listener. You will never see me do that. But I do think that this is a better way than deprivation and judging yourself for what you’re not doing.
Ali Shapiro [00:59:13]:
That’s the mic drop. Thank you for being you, Sass.
Sas Petherick [00:59:18]:
Thanks, love.
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