Among the Questions Explored:
- Why is sugar such a struggle for many in the sober community?
- What is the overlap between struggles with food/sugar and alcohol?
- Why does Angela say that being an alcoholic is the best thing that ever happened to her?
- How do you recognize when a behavior is crossing the line or tipping over to unhealthy?
About Angela Pugh:
After bartending her way across Hollywood and Beverly Hills, Angela was in over her head with a drinking problem that was relentless. She got sober in 2006 and dedicated her life to helping others do the same. She has spent the last 18+ years working in addiction/recovery as an Interventionist and trainer, and now serves as a Master Life Coach, host of the nationally-ranked Addiction Unlimited Podcast, national speaker, and entrepreneur.
Connect with Angela Pugh:
Mentioned in this episode:
- The 12 Steps of AA (Alcoholics Anonymous)
- Why Am I Eating This Now? Ali’s live group program, (opens in September)
- Please help Ali reach her goal of 200 pod
Connect with Insatiable & Ali:
Join our free Insatiable community gathering on the first Tuesday of each month from 2-3:00 pm ET to meet other Insatiable listeners. Bring your burning questions about the show or whatever you are struggling with for some free coaching from Ali. Visit alishapiro.com/gathering to sign-up and learn more.
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Have a question you’d like Ali to address on a future episode or a comment on the show? Ali would love to hear from you. Be sure to leave us a way to reach you in the event we’d like to play your message on a future episode.
Transcript:
Ali Shapiro [00:00:08]:
Hello, insatiable listeners. I hope you all are having a great start to summer, if you’re in the northern hemisphere, and, a delightful start to I guess it would be winter, right, in the southern hemisphere. Either way, you’re in for a treat today. We had Angela Pew who is well known in recovery circles. She’s a master life coach. She’s sober. She’s an entrepreneur. More about her in a second.
Ali Shapiro [00:00:40]:
We had a really great conversation. But before I get to today’s episode, 2 things I want you to know about. First of all, we are trying to get to 200 reviews before the end of summer, which ends September 21st, and you all have been great. Last time I asked for reviews on the what was the last episode? We had about a 173, 175, and we’re up to a 183. So y’all work fast. I appreciate it. We are 17 shy of my goal. So if you haven’t, in our show notes, there’s a really easy way.
Ali Shapiro [00:01:23]:
We’ll show you link to how to leave a review. Basically, you just go into Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. But we are our goal is 200 Apple, podcast reviews. You just scroll down to the bottom where it says ratings and reviews, and you click on the button that says leave a review. And you if you don’t know what to say, just perhaps say an episode that you liked and why or why you tune into the show, it’ll it’s really, really helps the show, those of us who are independent small businesses, it is becoming more and more difficult in the podcast space as big corporate money influences it. So having reviews helps more people found the show and it really it just it it helps. So I wanna thank everyone who has left review. I’m gonna read 3 more, that we haven’t read on air yet.
Ali Shapiro [00:02:23]:
This is from Tiff BC. It says worth your time. Listen now. Five stars. I love Ali because she is wise and relatable. Her amazing qualities come through in her podcast. She’s so smart and witty, wonderful to listen to. I just love how she is so real when she shares information and talks with her guests.
Ali Shapiro [00:02:42]:
Her perspective is golden. I learned so much from Ali. She’s a woman we will all benefit listening to. Thank you, Tiff b c, and keeping it real. It feels a little awkward reading these things about yourself, but I appreciate this. The next one is from Jen at 111 o, and she said 10 stars. Thank you. And she gave it 5 stars.
Ali Shapiro [00:03:06]:
I can’t believe it’s taken me this long to review this fantastic podcast. Insatiable is the only podcast I listen to religiously because it’s amazing. I have no idea how I learned about Insatiable and Ali, but I’m so glad I did. I’ve been listening since day 1 and haven’t missed an episode yet. I’m gonna give you a prize, Jen. Ali not only covers different topics related to food and eating, but also covers a whole host of other topics that are super interesting and informative. She has definitely brought in my knowledge on many subjects, and I’m so grateful. I feel more informed and well rounded.
Ali Shapiro [00:03:41]:
Ali’s interview style is straightforward and honest with a lot of empathy mixed in. She goes deep with everyone she interviews. Insatiable is not to be missed. Thank you, Jett. And our last new one that I’m going to read, it comes from Hill z, and she gave 5 stars and said fresh wise voice. She says listening to Allie supports my healing journey. I have learned how to reclaim my body through the wisdom in her podcast newsletter and free Zoom gatherings. Those are the community gatherings.
Ali Shapiro [00:04:14]:
Her her fresh voice gives guidance that trusts each person’s unique experience. I find hope, strength, acceptance, and confidence in her and her guest’s expertise. Thank you, Hilsie, and I’m so glad that you’re taking this information and making it actionable because, ultimately, that’s what makes change. Which brings me to my second update is that we will be running Why am I eating this now live in the fall. So this is one of my signature programs. It is where we get to the root of your stress eating so that you can really be consistent with your eating habits. But what we do that’s really unique about why am I eating this now is we don’t just help you manage your stress. We help you lead your stress, which means that, hey, you’re still gonna have your life.
Ali Shapiro [00:05:03]:
You’re still gonna be stressed. But how do you respond better so that you actually feel fulfilled from what’s coming out your way rather than just feeling like your life’s just happening and coming at you. Okay? So that program will run-in September. It’s a 12 week program. It’s very reasonably priced. So if you’re interested, make sure you get on my list at alishapiro.com. And there will be some launching activities, but late in late August September as we begin September 12th for our opening session, and I just cannot speak enough about the community that tends to gather who listens to insatiable, but also in my groups. We’re actually about to end truce with food here, in about 6 weeks and everyone’s already like, oh my god, this group.
Ali Shapiro [00:05:53]:
I can’t imagine going on without the group, because the people that come to my programs are just the best, and we create a really safe space so that you can show up and do the work you need to do to work through this stuff. I was just on Liz Wolfe’s, Balance Bites podcast. She interviewed me on Tuesday. It’ll be out on July 3rd, but she asked me the difference between belonging and community and I thought it was a really great question. And I think often we can be in with community with other people, but feel still separate or isolated. And I know our food choices can often make us feel separated or isolated. Our body size can often make us feel separated or isolated and the work that we do and why am I doing this now and also truth with food, the community guidelines, how I run the group, how the type of people that are attracted to this work, and really the community guidelines I offer, like you’re not allowed to give advice, really create a safe space so that you feel like you belong, that those pieces that maybe you felt had to be separate or isolated can come forth, and that is really equally as powerful as what you’re gonna learn and what you’re gonna change. So if you’re craving that, definitely check it out.
Ali Shapiro [00:07:13]:
Okay. So those are my 2 updates, and now on to the show. But, first, I do wanna tell you more about Angela. She is really, really wonderful. She actually reached out to me after hearing me on another addiction recovery podcast. And what I thought was really unique is I often work with a lot of sober folks who either food was their first issue, and then alcohol supplanted it, or they had, you know, alcohol, they got sober and then food became an issue. But Angela told me that she’s worked with people who, because they’ve lost weight often very fast, and then turned to alcohol. And I thought that was a really interesting reverse process.
Ali Shapiro [00:08:01]:
Right? Especially, for so many of us think weight loss is gonna solve a lot of our problems. And so I wanted to bring her on to talk about that which we talk about and even her own story of body image issues and alcohol helping her almost cope with those. But she Angela has a huge background in addiction recovery, behavior change, and in this episode, we really got to about when does a a behavior like food, like alcohol, shopping, social media, when does that become problematic? I asked her that. When does she think that happens? And we talked about, also, in that under that kind of umbrella of that question that you don’t have to be at rock bottom. Angela’s gonna share in her own personal story how life was going pretty well for her, actually. She had a very dramatic come to Jesus moment that she talks about, but I thought about with so many of my clients that everything in their life seems to be humming along, doing relatively well, and it feels like weight loss is the one thing that they can’t figure out. And I thought that too in my own life, except I thought the problems I did have, like, wanting to find a partner, wanting to find a meaningful career, I thought weight loss would make those easier. So but I would have looked on paper very successful like Angela did.
Ali Shapiro [00:09:28]:
So we talk about it these this problematic behavior often can be really hard to know that it’s problematic. So we get into that discussion. We get to the roots of personal when we’re struggling personally. Again, even though we looked at through the lens of alcohol and food, this could be tied to anything. And I loved how Angela offered a really great question that you can ask yourself when you’re out, especially in social situations, whether there’s food, alcohol, shopping, whatever, what you can ask yourself, and what you need to answer to be able to not fall into relatively addictive behaviors, and absolutely addictive behaviors. And we talk about the real challenges that come up when we remove our primary coping mechanisms, and we get into a lot more. So I think you’re really gonna love today’s episode as it’s really about behavior change and what’s required for sustainable lasting behavior change and the identity shifts that have to be accompanied with this stuff. Okay.
Ali Shapiro [00:10:40]:
A little bit more about Angela, and then I’ll just let you listen so that you can understand how much she knows her stuff. Okay. Angela Pew is, like I said, a master life coach. She’s been sober for decade plus, and she is a entrepreneur. After bartending her way across Hollywood and Beverly Hills, Angela was in over her head with a drinking problem that was relentless. She got sober in 2006 and dedicated her life to others, to do the same. She has spent the last 18 plus years working in addiction recovery as an interventionist and trainer and now serves as the master life coach, host of the nationally ranked Addiction Unlimited podcast. She’s an and she’s an, national speaker.
Ali Shapiro [00:11:28]:
Alright. Enjoy the show. Don’t forget about those podcast reviews. And I hope to see some of you in why I’m writing this now, live in fall 2024 or September 2024 for those of you in the southern hemisphere. It’ll be your spring. Okay. Enjoy the show. Angela, thank you so much for joining us today
Angela Pugh [00:11:49]:
on Instagram. Yeah, absolutely. What a pleasure to get to do this episode with you.
Ali Shapiro [00:11:53]:
Yeah. I can’t wait to talk about alcohol food and the overlap because there is so much to unpack there. But before we get there, can you take me back to January 7, 2006? You got sober when you were 33 and you have said, which is a pretty bold statement and I like it, being an alcoholic is the best thing that ever happened to me. So, can you share?
Angela Pugh [00:12:20]:
I would love to. Isn’t that crazy? Like so many people don’t feel that way. But for me, I was really drowning in my life forever, right? I was just flailing trying to tread water, trying to figure life out and do the things as successfully as I could. And, you know, like many people, I come from, you know, a chaotic background and trauma, and I had an addicted parent too. So all those things are in the mix. You know? And I just really was miserable in life. I mean, I really just wasn’t doing it well. And, you know, once I was drinking for so many years and drinking is its own sort of slow burn.
Angela Pugh [00:13:04]:
Right? Like, it starts really fun. It’s like this really fun whirlwind romance, you know, love affair. It’s so incredible. And it changes your life. And it’s exciting and opens all these different opportunities. But you know, fast forward some years in there for me, it was 13, 14 years really that I was drinking regularly and by the end of that, you know, you’ve really disappointed yourself so much and so many times and you’re hurting yourself, you know, I mean, drinking every day, smoking cigarettes, all of those things that we do that are harmful to us are self harm. Right? And and you don’t do those things and make those choices to hurt yourself and have a healthy self esteem at the same time. Right? So I’m hurting myself every day.
Angela Pugh [00:13:54]:
I let myself down. I didn’t trust myself. I had done by the end of my drinking, I had done a whole bunch of really crappy things, and I was a liar. And, I mean, it was just a freaking mess. So when it came time to get sober, like, I was so grateful to have this crazy, like, slap in the face, like, get your shit together and figure this out. You know? Like, if you’re gonna live this life, live the damn life. You know? Mhmm. And so that’s why I say being an alcoholic was the best thing that ever happened to me because it’s what made me pay attention and get serious about growing up.
Angela Pugh [00:14:37]:
I mean, that’s really what it comes down to. I avoided growing up and adulting for as long as humanly possible, and it was miserable. So, yeah, that’s why I say it was the it was the greatest thing that ever happened to me because it just made me pay attention. It made me really get my life together and become a person that I never even thought I was capable of being.
Ali Shapiro [00:15:01]:
You said so much there. And on that date 1st of all, I just wanna ask you, on that date, January 7, 2006, you had a car accident, right? That was what Doctor. I did. Doctor. Yeah. And what made you think Because you have shared that you were high functioning, right? So, what made you think, okay, this is when I have to grow up? Like, what was that tipping point? Because I’m always curious. My background is really in how we change and everyone has different thresholds, but I’m just curious for you, what was it about that moment that was like, something’s gotta change?
Angela Pugh [00:15:38]:
Yeah. I’ll tell you, it was a couple of things, right? So I crashed my car and I crashed my car at 70 miles an hour on the freeway, and I hit another car. So in that moment, I thought I killed the person that I hit. Wow. And I don’t know. Like, listen. I would love to give you an accurate timeline. It could have been 30 seconds for all I know.
Angela Pugh [00:16:02]:
But in that moment, like, I remember because I only remember bits and pieces of my accident. But I remember standing on the side of the freeway, and I’m pouring blood, right, because my nose was broken. I’m pouring blood everywhere, and I’m looking at the wreckage of this accident scene and all the flashing lights in the cars. And and I’m like, oh my gosh. Like, I have to call my mom right now and tell her I just killed someone. You know? And I have one of those moms who’s like the best mom ever. She’s like the mom everyone dreams of. So I’m just standing there like, wow, I’m literally going to ruin her life in one sentence.
Angela Pugh [00:16:42]:
So that was a huge part of it. The next piece of it was, you know, I didn’t care about hurting myself. I hated myself, and I prayed to die every day. You know, I thought I always say this. I thought that one night I would go to sleep, and I just wouldn’t wake up again. Because I’m a very small human, and I was really malnourished basically at the end of my drinking. So I didn’t eat food anymore hardly at all. I was a very small person.
Angela Pugh [00:17:09]:
I was like, there’s only so much a little tiny body can take for so many years. Right? So I just thought I would go to sleep and never wake up, but I kept waking up. And every day that I woke up, it’s like I was heartbroken because it felt like torture. And I was like, oh my God, I have to do this again. You know, it was just so hard. And in all of that, I didn’t care if I hurt myself, but it never crossed my mind that I could hurt somebody else. And that was a game changer because I never set out to hurt anybody else, you know? So that was a piece of it. The final piece was, you know, this was about the 3rd last piece of And the last piece of it was it just crossed my mind.
Angela Pugh [00:18:02]:
I was like, wow, I’m trying my best to die every single day. But I keep not dying. You know? Like, I guess there must be something else I meant to do. I mean, that was really my thought. It’s like, I’m trying my to die, but I am not dying. So there must be something else I’m on this planet for. So those were the things that all came together as I was standing on the side of the freeway looking at this crash site. Right? My beautiful, high functioning, super expensive car crashed and, you know, it’s like the reality, the picture of my high functioning life and me as a high functioning person and the reality of the disaster of who I really was all came together in that moment.
Ali Shapiro [00:18:51]:
Got it. Got it. And I’m assuming, did you end up killing someone or was it
Angela Pugh [00:18:56]:
I did not. He was fine. I was the only one hurt and he was fine. I forget to say that sometimes. Sorry.
Ali Shapiro [00:19:03]:
I think the listeners would have been like, you know, as a listener. But I think you just bring up such a good point because you were also a bartender, right? I was. Yeah. So, I think this is important to realize so much of your identity was around alcohol. It wasn’t just even your drinking, it was your work. And I think you had shared you got to hang out with famous people, and so there was this whole cache that went with it, right, that Trevor Articulated. It’s like, it feels like it’s this, but the evidence is to the contrary. And that can be really hard, I think, especially in the food world right now, as we’re waking up to even having language about diet culture and diets.
Ali Shapiro [00:19:49]:
I think what’s toxic about diet culture is that your worth is in your size and that you want to be thin at any cost. And though, I think there’s this, like, we’ve gone a little bit too far on the side of, like, it doesn’t matter what you eat, it doesn’t matter, like, and kind of there’s like what I’m trying to say is there’s the emotional things that we need to separate, but there’s biological truths that we have to look at in terms of our health, right? And I think sometimes we can see, you know, the evidence on maybe our blood work or something, but it’s like, but I’ve been told I’m okay no matter what. Do you know what I mean? I don’t know if I’m drawing the exact It’s not the same or an equivalent, but I think this identity of how we think we are versus what might actually be happening, sometimes we have to just let those things pile up. So I love that you said it was like the 3 things coming together that Yeah.
Angela Pugh [00:20:45]:
Yeah. And it is like, it takes a lot to really be able to face something enormous. Right? Like, being an alcoholic is an enormous thing to think about, to admit to yourself, to admit to other people. I’m so grateful that I’ve always been really excited about it. Like, I didn’t have I’ve never had shame or guilt or I never felt weak for being an alcoholic. Like, I never had any of those experiences. I was so proud. I was so grateful to know what was wrong so that I could fix it.
Angela Pugh [00:21:20]:
You know? It’s like I spent so many years just suffering through my life, and I had no idea what to do. And when I finally understood, like, oh my gosh, you’re an alcoholic. It’s like, oh, well, damn. Now I know what to do. Now I know where to go. I know who to ask for help. Like, to me, it was a solution where other people think of it as the problem, right, which is interestingly the same thing we do with with alcohol and with food. Right? We think of it as the solution when, really, it’s the problem.
Ali Shapiro [00:21:52]:
Yeah. Well, I would actually say I think food is the solution and the problem is is deeper. So Right. But that’s
Angela Pugh [00:22:00]:
what I mean. We use food as the solution, though, just like we do alcohol, and it has nothing to do with it. Like, even, you know, getting sober has very little to do with drinking. You know, it is it’s healing all of the underlying stuff and people have this misconception, like, okay. Well, alcohol is the problem, so I’m gonna stop drinking and everything’s gonna be fine. And it’s like, well, I love the simplicity of that, but the truth is we drink for a reason. So when you wanna quit drinking, you have to start figuring out the reason.
Ali Shapiro [00:22:36]:
Yes. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. We were saying the same thing, but I heard it differently. But yes. Yes.
Ali Shapiro [00:22:42]:
So, since we heard, you know, kind of your alcohol story, can you now you say though that food was your first addiction. So, can you share that story and how it intertwined with alcohol? Doctor. Yeah.
Angela Pugh [00:22:55]:
You know, I think I’ve just come to this realization, honestly, in the last couple of years, like, thinking about because it was always food was always such a big part of my life. Right? And I was a kid in the seventies. So everything, like, in our family, everything we did revolved around food. And it was much different than, like, everything was made from scratch. Right? So it’s like my mom, my grandmother, like, these women were in the kitchen all day long preparing food and making fresh pies and all of that stuff because everything was made from fresh ingredients. You know, now we call it organic, but in the seventies, it was just food. It didn’t require a differentiation. It was just food.
Angela Pugh [00:23:39]:
Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:23:41]:
But lastly, like, and like sadness at the same time. Yeah.
Angela Pugh [00:23:44]:
Yes. Yes. For sure. So, yeah, it just was it it’s what all the connection and the happiness and the bonding and the warmth of family was all intertwined with food and in desserts. Right? Because dessert of course, we always had dessert. After you eat, you have dessert. So and I recognized also, like, the first part of my sobriety, I wasn’t so sugar obsessed. Like, I don’t know what that’s about.
Angela Pugh [00:24:14]:
But I was probably about 8 years sober, 9 years sober or something. And I met this particular flavor of Ben and Jerry’s, and we really hit it off. So we started spending a lot of time together. And and that’s really what kicked my sugar addiction into overdrive. Right? It’s like I found this ice cream. I loved it. And then it was, like, at the convenience store right down the street from my house. So I didn’t even have to go to the grocery store.
Angela Pugh [00:24:45]:
Like, it was beautiful. Next thing I know, I’m having it 5 days a week. And and then I noticed that, like, my friends identified me by my sugar consumption. Like, I was the person that always had dessert or always had sweets, which was the same thing with my drinking. I was always the one. Right? I was the person you called when you wanted to go out and really get down and dirty. Like, I was the party person. And so I started noticing just, like, these similarities.
Angela Pugh [00:25:17]:
But it wasn’t until, again, just like alcohol, it wasn’t until I started trying to moderate or quit. Right. I never got into diet culture. Like I’ll certainly try different things, but I’m not a, like, I wanna be on this diet for the rest of my life kind of thing. I just want to feel good. So when I started trying to kind of figure things out where I’m like, okay, my sugar consumption is out of control, right? And alcohol is processed as sugar in your body. So it’s natural that you give up alcohol and your body is going to crave sugar, But I had just gotten so crazy with it. And once I started trying to cut back is when I realized like, wow, this is serious.
Angela Pugh [00:26:01]:
This isn’t this is not a lightweight issue we’re dealing with here. This is a situation, you know.
Ali Shapiro [00:26:08]:
Yeah. So do you think then with you saying it was your first addiction, but it sounded like you and your family had a healthy relationship with it. Like I don’t, I guess I don’t necessarily think like food is connection is perhaps bad, but and I’m not saying you’re saying that either, but it sounds like it was pretty healthy until like, you’ve then worked on the drinking. Am I hearing that right? Or am I
Angela Pugh [00:26:31]:
I don’t know. I don’t even know if I’ve been able to connect all of those dots just yet. I’ll say I’ll definitely say, like, living in LA for so many years, right, that definitely didn’t help because there is a skinny standard in Los Angeles that is different. And I always fit that pretty easily, right, especially because I was drunk and I didn’t really eat food very much, so that was easy for me. But it’s a conditioning, right? It’s a conditioning. So once I became older and I wasn’t just maintaining that level of skinny doing nothing, right, then it became an issue. Then I was like, oh, wait a minute. You know, then add midlife in there and perimenopause and menopause, and, like, all of a sudden it’s like, Oh, wow.
Angela Pugh [00:27:16]:
Like, this is different, and it’s out of my control. So I think that I put a lot of pressure on food to perform for me. I need it to be connection and comfort and bonding. Right? I put a lot of pressure on food. Like, food should not have to perform. But in my head, all those things are connected. Now another interesting piece is, you know, when you get sober, you’re not going out for drinks anymore. So all we do is go out to eat, Right? Or go out for coffee and pastries.
Angela Pugh [00:27:50]:
Like, that’s all we do. There what else are we gonna do? So it is like and I think that’s why it didn’t really come up in a major way for me until later in my recovery because it’s a journey like everything else, you know?
Ali Shapiro [00:28:05]:
Yeah. Well, that’s so interesting that you bring up the conditioning piece. So do you think you weren’t really conscious of food having to perform and Are you from LA or?
Angela Pugh [00:28:15]:
I’m from Kansas City, but I was in LA. I lived in LA many, many years full time and then another 15 years about, you know, I was still there 15, 20 days a month up until COVID.
Ali Shapiro [00:28:25]:
Okay. So, do you think that, like, you moving to LA was where that kind of conditioning began? Like, maybe it was always latent or because you’re naturally small, you didn’t really have to think about it until it was like, Oh, I’m not the smallest. Because I think of Jennifer Hudson Oprah had Jennifer Hudson on years ago, and she was talking about, like, where she grew up in her neighborhood, like, no one talked about body size. There was no emotional, like, gravitas to her size. And so, when, you know, they were talking about doing Weight Watchers and Jennifer Hudson was saying like, Oh, this Weight Watchers was easy. Like, because to her, it was just a logic puzzle because there was no emotional, like she didn’t grow up with that, like, oh, you matter based on your size. So, it was, I can execute this. But when we’re as young adults and especially if you’re moving from a place that you’re not from, I can see how it’s like, okay, right now I’m technically an outsider.
Ali Shapiro [00:29:25]:
And so, you just pick up on these cues of here’s how you belong. And especially if food has been connection, it was like a healthy thing that then turned unhealthy is I think what you’re saying. It’s like,
Angela Pugh [00:29:40]:
which is how I like to do everything. Right? It’s all healthy until I make it unhealthy. Yes.
Ali Shapiro [00:29:49]:
Well, I’m curious because you have such a great track record of working with people with alcohol. And I also wanna talk about your own clients who almost have a reverse process of my clients in terms of some of them lost the weight and then turned to drinking. But what do you think a behavior tips over from, Oh, this is healthy, to, I’m not making this healthy? And I think your food is a perfect example. Oh, like when I’m connecting with my mother and my grandmother and we’re cooking from scratch, this is healthy connection. But then when all of a sudden, I’m moving to LA and it’s about getting smaller and the conditioning is about eating less, so okay, alcohol serves both of these purposes, right? But what do you think is that tipping point for people?
Angela Pugh [00:30:35]:
I think when you’re like one thing I always say about my drinking when I first started to connect the pieces that it was unhealthy or that I did it differently, was that I recognized I was more attached to it than my friends were, right? It was more important to me. It had more significance in my life. And I always tell this story one night leaving the bar in Hollywood with all my friends, and everybody’s like, okay. See you later. Call me tomorrow. And in my head, I was like, well, why would they leave when we could drink more? Like, why is everybody going home? Right? Like, it was just more important to me. And then it’s when you continue doing it despite negative consequences. Right? So for a lot of people, this looks different.
Angela Pugh [00:31:20]:
For me, I am a forever single person. You know, I never wanted family, kids, marriage, like, all of those things. So my lifestyle was very different in general. But when you have, your friends maybe talk to you about how much you’re drinking or your behavior when you’re drinking, and your commitment is still to drinking, right? It’s not to modifying that behavior to be better. It’s not being self aware and going, oh, wow. Like, my friends are letting me know I’m a little bit challenging. Like, I need to chill out and cut back on this. This isn’t the behavior I want.
Angela Pugh [00:31:55]:
When you have a problem, you’re going for it regardless. Right? My commitment was to my drinking. Same thing with food. When your commitment is to the food instead of your well-being and your quality of life, that’s a problem, you know, because it’s just your relationship is skewed at that point.
Ali Shapiro [00:32:13]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’m thinking too how you said like that those things coming together made you realize you have a problem. How did you hear that beforehand from your friends? How did you hear it if it was like, Okay, I’m recognizing this is different, but I don’t think I have a problem. So, when they said that, were you hearing, But I’m your ride or die party girl. I’m just curious, like, what were you hearing as they were saying that?
Angela Pugh [00:32:39]:
So I only had one friend really approach me and say anything about my drinking. And because, right, I I was a partier, so everybody I hung out with were partiers too. It’s not like I was hanging out with a bunch of teetotalers, and I’m crushing, you know, a 1,000 drinks a day. Most people I hung out with drank like me, But I had one friend of mine, who he and his girlfriend were staying in my extra bedroom for a period of time. She had come over from another country, and they were just getting settled. And I was like, yeah. You guys have crashed in my extra room, get jobs, get on your feet. And his dad had died from alcoholism.
Angela Pugh [00:33:15]:
And he said to me, and I was probably only 27, maybe 28, and he said to me, he said, You are as bad now as my dad was when he died. And I thought, wow, that’s such a weird thing to say because here’s the high functioning part, right? I lived in a beautiful place. I drove the beautiful car. I made a ton of money. I lived a beautiful life for all intents and purposes. All of my disaster was internal. Right? So I was very high functioning. Now had I not been a bartender, the job situation probably would have been different.
Angela Pugh [00:33:57]:
I don’t think I would have been getting up and going to work at 8 or 9 AM, but I didn’t have to go to work till 11 PM most of my life. So, but yeah. So I just thought, like, when he said that, I thought it was weird. I wasn’t having any I wasn’t I’m a very controlled person, and I was the same way even drunk, you know. I had the money. I had all the things. You know, I carried the right handbag and all the stuff. So when he said it to me, I just thought it was really odd.
Ali Shapiro [00:34:31]:
Doctor. Yeah. I think people listening and we have a lot of sober folks who listen, but I think people can also relate to that with the food stuff. It is all internal, right? It’s like no one would know from the outside. If anything, maybe you’re the low maintenance one. I’ll eat wherever, right? It’s like you get all these positive accolades versus it’s like the damage is internal. So I love that you made that distinction. I think that’s really important.
Angela Pugh [00:35:00]:
I And I was really proud of my drinking. I was very proud of how much I could drink and I didn’t know anybody that could out drink me, male or female. Like, I thought I was very cool because I had perfected my craft over many years, and I was extremely committed to it. And, yeah, I thought I was really cool, but it it is different. So I think it all being internal also, like, all of my light bulb moments had to be internal as well. I couldn’t hear that from outside sources. Not that I would have again because everybody I hung out with drank like me. Mhmm.
Angela Pugh [00:35:40]:
But, yeah, those light bulb moments really have to be internal too.
Ali Shapiro [00:35:44]:
Yeah. My background is in, like, how adults learn and change. And it’s like we, as adults, we have to come to these conclusions ourselves. We can’t hear them from other people. It just is like this rule. I don’t know who made it, but it’s just how it happens. So When we were chatting over email beforehand, you said that you’ve worked with some clients who they’ve lost weight and then turned to alcohol. Can you tell me about that? Because I find that I’m so curious.
Ali Shapiro [00:36:16]:
Did they find that the relief they were hoping in weight loss didn’t happen or were they getting more attention that they felt responsible for? What was going on there?
Angela Pugh [00:36:26]:
Doctor. So I’ve had this in my practice in 2 different ways. I’ve worked with a lot of people who have had surgery for weight loss and had drastic quick weight loss. And what I feel like happens with that is your emotional maturity in the gradual internal change that has to take place doesn’t have time to keep up with the weight loss, right? Like the weight loss happens so fast. So you’re still carrying all the baggage and the wounds and everything that came with the weight. Now you just look different. So naturally, it makes sense we’re gonna self medicate, right? I mean, we drink and use drugs and eat food and smoke cigarettes and do all the things, have sex, shop, all of that stuff, really for addicted people especially is we do that to change how we feel. Mhmm.
Angela Pugh [00:37:19]:
So there’s always an underlying discomfort that we are trying to numb or mask or avoid, whatever the case may be. And then the flip side is, I’ve had people that have had a longer, slower weight loss journey, but their focus has been so much on the weight loss that they weren’t working on the internal things, right, and healing the trauma and the wounds and all of this stuff. So it’s almost like it’s almost like you’re you know, in AA, we say your insides don’t match your outsides, you know, or vice versa. Your outsides don’t match your insides. And I feel like that’s the same sort of phenomenon that I’ve worked with people in is that, you know, now your outside looks different, but your inside hasn’t had a chance to catch up and your healing hasn’t caught up with the weight loss.
Ali Shapiro [00:38:14]:
Yeah. I know I’ve seen some, interesting stats about bariatric surgery and people turning to alcohol or shopping afterwards because of that. This came up in my Truth With Food Group like 2 weeks ago, this one woman who was just like, I don’t know if I can actually ever believe that I won’t be happier or thinner. And I was like, Well, this program is not here to tell you what to believe. So, you know, I said, And though, I think there is some power in our culture, thin privilege exists, right? But it’s like- Sure. Doctor. I’ll use a food metaphor, it’s like not the whole pie. So maybe you get like 20% more power from thinness, but my clients waffle would be like, Well, I wanna I’ll just be more confident.
Ali Shapiro [00:38:58]:
I’ll feel bulletproof. And I’m like, Well, that’s resilience. Like, weight loss cannot teach you resilience. Or if you wanna be in a relationship, weight loss can’t teach you good communication skills, you know, or like how to communicate when both people’s, you know, triggers are triggered, you know? So, I think that’s what you’re saying, and I love that. It’s like the inside doesn’t match the outside. And I think there can be a real loss, especially, I think, around weight loss, probably not with alcohol, although maybe you can tell me if I’m different, but weight loss is kind of like marketed as like, all your problems are gonna be solved with this, right? And it’s like Yeah. I still remember I was in Philadelphia and really struggling with something in my business. This was like 15 years ago.
Ali Shapiro [00:39:42]:
And I was like, shit, I used to think weight loss. Like once I lost weight, this would all be easier. And it was like this loss of, like, no, it’s not. You’ve got to figure it out. There’s no escaping it.
Angela Pugh [00:39:53]:
Exactly the same. Exactly the same with alcohol. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, you also, you’re taking away our favorite coping mechanism, right? For alcoholics, that’s alcohol, and for food addicts, that’s food. So it’s like people, especially people on the outside, our friends, our families, our partners, right? People don’t understand. It’s like, listen, I don’t have any coping skills. I used alcohol as my primary coping strategy for years.
Angela Pugh [00:40:22]:
Now you wanna take that away and have some expectation that I’m just gonna live happily ever after. Like, it doesn’t happen that way. There’s a lot of stuff that has to be figured out. And you also just left me with a ton of hours in a day that I have to figure out how to fill because now I’m not drinking, and I feel crappy, and I’m sad, and all the guilt and shame of my past is sinking in on me, and it’s uncomfortable. Right? And friends and family, I think, have this misconception the thing may be. And then you live happily ever after. And I’m like, no, I have to decide this 4000 times a day. In everything I do, every conversation I have, person I talk to, people I hang out with, like, every decision, I have to remind myself that my sobriety is my priority, then I have to live my life in accordance with that.
Angela Pugh [00:41:25]:
And for a person with no coping skills and the emotional maturity of a 17 year old, that’s not so simple.
Ali Shapiro [00:41:33]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The adulting, like you said, growing up, man. It’s just not. Man.
Angela Pugh [00:41:41]:
I mean, I’m kinda glad I put it off as long as I could. That was smart. Yeah. I was definitely not prepared to do it in my twenties, nor was I interested.
Ali Shapiro [00:41:56]:
Well, let me ask you this then. In terms of the insides and outsides matching for both alcohol and food, do you think there’s different key issues? Like I know that you’re starting to unravel this for yourself with food, but have you found that there’s different core issues related to each of them in your personal experience and with your clients?
Angela Pugh [00:42:19]:
Doctor. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think comfort is probably really the core experience for me. And in connection, like I talked about, it’s just one of my favorite things is like beautiful food in a beautiful restaurant with beautiful company, and just the connection and bonding of that and the atmosphere and all of those things, it’s just one of my favorites. And again, that’s a lot of pressure to put on food or dining out. And what I’m really learning is it just like with alcohol, right? It doesn’t matter what’s in your glass. What’s in your glass does not change your experience. The food that’s on my plate is not going to change how I connect with the other people at the table.
Angela Pugh [00:43:02]:
It is not going to change how much I laugh or how much I enjoy myself. So it is kind of learning to trust myself to stand on my own in those situations and be okay and and also not have all the conversation be about the food. This is another thing I’ve really connected the last couple of years. Like, everybody is so damn obsessed with food. Like, it can be literally all my conversations all the time, like my girlfriends, my mom, my dad, my sisters in law. Like, it can be all the conversations about food and what we’re doing and trying and what we’re not having and what we’re thinking. And, you know, it’s like, wow, I just cannot be inundated with this every moment of my life, you know. Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:43:50]:
I love that you said that because earlier you used the word attach. And so much of my word is about how food is coupled with attachment. Yes. And what you just illustrated so beautifully was often if we don’t feel like we can stand on our own when we’re eating, right, it’s like, Oh, food becomes this very socially acceptable way to feel like we’re connected. It doesn’t mean we’re attached, but it means that we’re connecting over something, but that deeper sense of belonging that we can show up on our own 2 feet and have something to contribute that isn’t about the food. And it can also be sometimes about the food, but, like, having more flexibility than just, oh my god, we all have to eat the same, so then it feels like we’re connected.
Angela Pugh [00:44:33]:
Does that make sense? I I don’t know. It’s Or even, like, even, like, sometimes the guilt, like, like, if my girlfriend gets a salad and I’m getting some crazy heavy dish that’s, like, enough food for 3 people. You know what I mean? Like, I can feel some weirdness about that. And it’s like, Angela, like, lay off, dude. You’re okay. You’re fine. Everybody’s okay. Nobody cares what you’re eating, you know, like, she’s not judging you because she’s eating the salad, right? Like, you’re okay.
Angela Pugh [00:45:01]:
But there’s always this internal dialogue, again, just like alcohol, but there’s always this internal dialogue about what’s happening and how I’m eating and what do other people think about it and are they watching me. And, you know, it’s it turns to insanity quickly.
Ali Shapiro [00:45:14]:
Yeah. Totally. I know. I always say to my clients, like, what we’re measuring is, has the relationship stayed the same or improved, not what everybody’s eating. It’s like, oh, yeah, because we think this is what is indicative of the relationship per se. So, okay. So, you with your clients, so you shared with you personally, have you noticed is that theme of connection with food, is that the same or is alcohol still about connection or is there something different that you see with your clients that’s different from you even?
Angela Pugh [00:45:48]:
Your Yeah. Alcohol’s definitely about connection a lot. But, you know, I think the underlying issue for all behavioral issues is unhealed wounds and unhealed trauma, right? There’s a reason I am seeking things outside of myself to change how I feel on the inside. You know, really, everything we need as human beings is inside of us. We don’t need any external things. Right? Connection, we were pack animals. We are made to connect and and be with people for sure. But my happiness, my gratitude, my integrity, my morals, my desires, my joys, all of those things are internal.
Angela Pugh [00:46:35]:
And when I can, which is really where I’ve gotten to, when I can disconnect from the outcomes, right, it’s like you can’t be dependent on outcomes. I can’t be dependent on, is this night gonna go the way I want it to? Is this conversation gonna go the way I want it to? Is this food gonna make me feel the way I want it to? Right? I have to not be controlled by the external things in those external outcomes. I have to really know that I am going to be okay no matter what.
Ali Shapiro [00:47:06]:
Yeah. Yeah. I was reading some behavioral research too, because I think what you’re talking about is like I mean, we hear honor the process, but we’re not a culture that cares about process. It’s like,
Angela Pugh [00:47:17]:
Oh, this person’s a billionaire. We just need the result.
Ali Shapiro [00:47:19]:
Yeah. This person’s a billionaire. We’re not who cares that they’re destroying the earth and the process? Or like you know what I mean? It’s just like
Angela Pugh [00:47:25]:
Or that it took them 40 years to get there.
Ali Shapiro [00:47:27]:
Yeah. Or they had daddy’s money. I mean, right?
Angela Pugh [00:47:30]:
But the point is, is
Ali Shapiro [00:47:31]:
the how really matters. And we don’t often worry about that. And I think about and so this behavioral research was saying, like, to your point, like, if we can choose how we wanna show up, like, we feel, and truth with who we call it, in choice, that actually gives you some dopamine, right? And it’s like, Oh my God, like really caring about the process. How do I wanna show up here tonight? Or I may not be able to control the outcome, but can I stand on my own 2 feet with these values? I love how you said that. It’s so important. Yeah, we have to worry or we have to think about the experience itself, not just like the end of the night, I guess, is what I’m trying to say.
Angela Pugh [00:48:13]:
Yeah. Yeah. Enjoy the time, not the outcome. Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:48:17]:
It’s so hard. Yeah.
Angela Pugh [00:48:20]:
But we also have so much more power in the outcome too, right? Like, I feel like we get in sort of victim mindset and too. Right? Like, I feel like we get in sort of victim mindset, and people think they’re powerless over all these things. And I can’t believe this is happening to me. And why is this happening in my life and whatever. But it’s like, dude, you have so much control over all of those things. You know, I have full control over if I am sitting at dinner with friends, I have full control over how much fun I have. It doesn’t have to have anything to do with anybody else. I can decide that I’m okay, and I’m going to enjoy myself, and I’m gonna laugh, and I’m gonna connect with people regardless of what anybody else at the table is doing.
Ali Shapiro [00:48:58]:
Yeah. I think that requires the self awareness and maturing and adulting that you were talking about.
Angela Pugh [00:49:03]:
For sure. So you had the beautiful opportunity of 18 years of working on myself. So
Ali Shapiro [00:49:12]:
I know. I know. Tell me about it. I’m right there with you. So you had mentioned that with sober people, it’s often like, Hey, let’s go to the cafe and get, like, a coffee or, you know, a Danish or I forget exactly what food you said because the irony is now that I’ve had my own choice of food, I don’t remember what people eat or say about food. But sugar does appear to be a real struggle in the sober community. And I’m curious, why do you think that is?
Angela Pugh [00:49:43]:
Well, it’s an addictive substance, you know. I mean, it hits all the same areas of the brain that a lot of drugs do. And this is the same thing with food, right? Food is really engineered to be addictive a engage those cravings. That is all intentional, which is another thing that has made it easier for me to really start controlling my food because I don’t like being manipulated. And, and I don’t like these huge industries. Right? And I don’t like that. They really don’t care if I live or die. They really don’t care about my quality of life.
Angela Pugh [00:50:20]:
They don’t care if I become diabetic. They don’t care if I have heart disease. They don’t care if I’m obese. Right? Like, they don’t care. They’re just making money. And if I’m just following the herd and doing all the things, I’m just playing right into their game, and I don’t like that. So I like to shop in the, you know, organic food that used to just be called food. I want produce and, you know, like, I just don’t wanna participate.
Angela Pugh [00:50:48]:
But it is, I mean, it is all made to be addictive.
Ali Shapiro [00:50:53]:
Yeah. Yeah. Do you think there’s I know I joke with people when, like, grocery stores have, like, a health food section. I’m like, Well, what’s the other section? Like that’s a good name, right? We’ve normalized a health food section. But do you think there’s anything else I’m thinking with the sober community that makes it challenging, like the malnourishment or is there anything else of because they’ve lost their major coping mechanism? I’m just curious what your advice are on. Yeah, for sure.
Angela Pugh [00:51:21]:
We definitely have the tendency to transfer addictions, right? I mean, we are people who are compulsive by nature. You know, I always say that I only know how to go too far. So with everything, it’s like, you know, listen. If one is good, 5’s gotta be better. You know? So and that is that’s how we think. Right? That’s a natural thought process, certainly, for an addicted person. So you are naturally going to look for other things to be compulsive with, and we don’t necessarily do it on purpose. You know, the vast majority of women, it’s food.
Angela Pugh [00:51:56]:
Right? We typically turn to food. Now there is also the other piece that, I think I touched on this for a second earlier that alcohol is processed as sugar in your body, like alcohol turns to sugar. So when you’re used to drinking regularly, and then think too if you’re a person that drinks sugary drinks, if you’re drinking wine, if you’re drinking vodka mixed with juice or martinis or all these super sweet liquors that there are now, And all these I don’t even know what they have now. Truly’s and White Claws, like, all these things. Like, these things are packed with sugar. So naturally, if you take the cocktails away, you’re still gonna have that sugar addiction running through you and trying to look for a way to get fed.
Ali Shapiro [00:52:41]:
Yeah, I know. And it’s such quick I’m thinking again, I’m not an expert in sobriety by any means, but I imagine you need to repair some like metabolism and metabolism, not about weight loss, but metabolism is like how your body like extracts nutrients and all that stuff. I bet that takes a while. And so, I’m sure sugar kind of fills that gap. And you can only do one thing at a time, right?
Angela Pugh [00:53:07]:
You really can only do one thing at a time, and that’s so important. One of the biggest challenges in early sobriety is you know, your brain is on the roller coaster ride of a lifetime. Your brain has to completely reconfigure what your new normal is because you just took away its source of dopamine and serotonin and GABA and endorphins. Right? You just remove that source from your brain too. So it’s a lot internally, you’re going through a lot. You definitely don’t feel great for a while, and your brain really has to reboot and, and figure out how it’s supposed to function properly.
Ali Shapiro [00:53:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. I think people need to have compassion for that part of the process. Right?
Angela Pugh [00:53:51]:
Right? Well, it’s called post acute withdrawal, pause, p a w s, post acute withdrawal syndrome or symptoms. You find it either way. And it is kind of you know, acute withdrawal is what happens immediately when you quit drinking or doing drugs. It’s your immediate physical withdrawal. But once the physical part is over, you know, then you’ve got your brain and your body and, like, every organ in your body has to detox. Right? And that doesn’t happen quickly. So post acute withdrawal is that elongated section of recovery that can take, you know, they say 6 months up to 2 years. You know? I think most people fall in about the 9 to 10 month range of really noticeable symptoms.
Angela Pugh [00:54:33]:
You know, brain fog, your memory is bad, you don’t feel great, all those there’s a lot that goes with it. But, yeah, usually, I think about 9, 10 months, you’re gonna really deal with some. It doesn’t mean you’re gonna feel terrible all day every day. It doesn’t mean that at all. But, yeah, your brain and your body, you’re going through a lot.
Ali Shapiro [00:54:51]:
Yeah. Before we got on here, you were talking about you run some 6 week group programs and some trips and some of the people have been with you for 3 or 4 years. And so, I’m curious, like in the beginning, what does it feel like that root issue is? And then, how does that evolve in understanding the more you dig yourself out? I’m thinking of my own digging myself out of my own food stuff. It’s like, Oh, oh, oh. And sometimes you’re looking at the same thing from a different angle, but I’m curious, like in those early days where you’re just trying to get by, the understanding of what you see for yourself and your clients is at the root of it, but what unravels the longer that you work with people?
Angela Pugh [00:55:36]:
You know, honestly, I think the root of it doesn’t unravel for a while. You know, in in the I think the 1st year, it’s so important to go through an entire year sober, right, in all the seasons, the celebrations, the holidays, all the things. You need to experience all those things in a sober state of mind because, again, you’re finding your new normal. Right? So that takes quite a bit of energy. And, like, when people work with me in the 6 week program and they’re just starting out, we have to work on just what their triggers are in that moment. Like, day to day, what is challenging for you? What tools can we put in place so that you can get through these moments? And sometimes that’s relationships. Right? Like, it sounds weird, but I do a lot of relationship work with people and communication and all those things because relationships are a huge trigger. And now you’ve added an, another layer.
Angela Pugh [00:56:29]:
Like, say you got married when you were a hardcore drinking person. Now you’re sober, but your spouse is still drinking. Like, there are all of these layers to it where you really have changed the game, and there’s a lot of maneuvering that we have to do to figure those things out and certainly to bring our loved ones on that journey with us. You know? So in the beginning, we’re really just figuring out the day to day and and putting one foot in front of the other and getting good at the not drinking part and getting good at the dealing with the external triggers and and getting some good coping skills in place to deal with that stuff. And then I think, really, it’s after that that the unraveling starts happening that more of the core issues kind of come up because you’re not so focused on just not drinking.
Ali Shapiro [00:57:13]:
Yeah. It makes me think about, like, an Eastern philosophy, you know, the idea of ego is like you feel like you have control agency in the world, right? And it makes me think of like what you’re saying is like you first like the first layer of adulting growing up is like, you can choose not to drink. And it’s like once you get that ego scaffolding, then you can actually look at the other stuff that may be harder to look at that you really need that initial ego scaffolding to have.
Angela Pugh [00:57:45]:
Well, that’s some behaviors and some behaviors where you thought you did it because you were drinking. And now you’re sober and you start to see that you’re still making bad decisions. Right? People are still getting mad at you because you’re probably selfish fish and self serving, which we all are as humans. Alcoholics just kind of take it to another level. But you start to see, like in 12 steps, we call it character defects. You start to see that stuff and how it’s really presenting where before you could blame it on drinking. Now you have to take responsibility for it and figure it out.
Ali Shapiro [00:58:18]:
Interesting. Interesting. So now, you mentioned you just mentioned 12 steps and I know that AA is really important to you. And I also saw that on I think it was like a reel you did about how like you know, when you were coming up, do I sound old by saying coming up? AA was like all like, that was like the big thing. And now, I love that you’re doing traveling with people and all that stuff. What have you found with young I know younger people are drinking less and obviously people are still having problems. I mean, COVID exasperated food, alcohol, all the things because of the isolation and all of that stuff. But what do you think younger people are getting wrong about AA? That’s my first question.
Ali Shapiro [00:59:04]:
And then or is or do they got or do yeah. I’ll I’ll stop there. I’ll let you answer
Angela Pugh [00:59:11]:
that. That’s a big answer. So, listen, I think you get out of AA exactly what you put into AA. How you feel about AA is just how you feel in general. Right? AA doesn’t do anything. It’s just a room that you sit in. And it’s always fascinating to me when people will say, like, oh, AA didn’t work for me. Like, I get that.
Angela Pugh [00:59:35]:
You can definitely go to meetings, and it’s not a great vibe. I’ve been to a 1,000,000 meetings that I would not wanna go back to. So I get that experience for sure. But you definitely also can’t only go to one meeting. Every meeting has its own vibe, has its own personality, has its own kind of people, And people get all freaked out about running into somebody they know, so they’ll wanna go to a meeting across town, and then they wonder why they don’t feel comfortable and don’t fit in. And it’s like, well, dude, you should probably just go in your neighborhood because you’re already comfortable there and you already fit in. So the people in the room are gonna be like you because it’s your neighborhood. Right? So also that, you know, listen.
Angela Pugh [01:00:12]:
We’re the same people that you were drunk with everywhere. We’re the same people that you were drunk with at happy hour, at the Christmas party, at the family event. We’re the same people. We just sit in a different room now and drink coffee instead of alcohol. So I don’t know why all of a sudden yeah. And I so I don’t know why all of a sudden you don’t like us, but, you know, we’re we’re the same people that you were drinking with. We’re just in a different place now. But AA is an inanimate thing.
Angela Pugh [01:00:41]:
It doesn’t do anything. And it’s so it’s not AA’s responsibility to work or not work. You decide what experience you’re gonna have. Right? Just like anything else, like, we were just talking about going out, standing on your own 2 feet, being responsible for yourself. It’s the same thing in AA. I walked into AA, and I had no preconceived notions. I wasn’t mad about being there. I wasn’t mad that I couldn’t drink anymore.
Angela Pugh [01:01:06]:
All I wanted to do is build a different life. That’s all I cared about. I wanted to look forward. I wanted to be a different person, and I knew I could not drink no matter what. And I sat down and I soaked it in, and I have the time of my freaking life. Now, if you wanna go in and sit down and be pissed off about it, and woe is me, I can’t drink like normal people, right, and you have some of that anger and resentment and sadness about leaving this life behind, then, of course, you’re not gonna like it because you’re not ready to heal. So, of course, you’re not gonna wanna hear the people talking about how they got better because you’re not in that mind space. So it just isn’t about AA or not AA.
Angela Pugh [01:01:47]:
It’s about us as people and how we’re showing up in what we wanna get from it. I can sit next to a person in AA and hear exactly the same people share as it goes around the room and me and that person next to me will walk out with a very different experience. Because I’m looking for the positive things, because I’m in love with it, and I think it’s fantastic. Even the people I don’t care for, I still love them because they’re there and they’re trying their best and they’re doing everything they can, and I will support them no matter what. Also understanding everybody in that room isn’t there for you. Nobody is sitting around going, well, let’s make sure we talk about what they want us to talk about today. Let’s make sure we perform and make that person happy today because this is their first meeting. People are sitting in those rooms and they’re being real and authentic and honest and they’re fighting for their effing lives.
Angela Pugh [01:02:38]:
Right? I have a lot of respect for that. So I would never bash AA, even the bad parts. It’s not like AA is perfect. Right? There are plenty of flaws. There’s flaws in everything. But it is a beautiful place full of people that want to do nothing but love and support you and help you create the best life you could dream of. And I’ve never had that experience anywhere else.
Ali Shapiro [01:03:05]:
So has your relationship to it have changed at all since those early days or
Angela Pugh [01:03:12]:
Yeah, sure. I mean, it definitely evolves. Like going to meetings now is a different agenda than it was at day 1. You know, in the beginning, I mean, I went to a meeting every day for 5 years. I didn’t miss a meeting for 5 years. Like, I was not drinking. I could not I was not gonna do anything where there was the tiniest chance I might relapse. And I showed up every day, and I saw all these people there that have been sober for decades, and they were showing up every day.
Angela Pugh [01:03:37]:
So I was like, oh, cool. We’ll just show up every day, and I just kept doing it. Now today, of course, that looks different. I’m still involved. Right? I’m still a part of. I will always be a part of I will always give back I will always give my time and energy and be of service in that arena and all arenas really. But now my motivation isn’t to not drink. Now my motivation is to be there for the next person walking in, especially women.
Angela Pugh [01:04:05]:
Like women need to walk in and see another woman sitting there. So I don’t care if I feel like going to a meeting or not. I’m gonna have my happy buns in that seat because it’s important for the new person walking in the door. Right? It’s not about me or drinking or not drinking. It’s that we need to provide comfort in space and acceptance and love for each other, and we have to be there in order to do that.
Ali Shapiro [01:04:31]:
Yeah. Yeah. I’m I’m I have to admit though, I I mean, I’m really, in awe that you were just, like, ready to give up drinking. Because, again, I’ve never had
Angela Pugh [01:04:40]:
I mean, I almost killed someone.
Ali Shapiro [01:04:42]:
No, I know. But sometimes that’s like you know because, again, I’ve never had a problem with alcohol. I always thought it was too many calories and I wanted to eat my calories because I
Angela Pugh [01:04:51]:
have such a
Ali Shapiro [01:04:52]:
fucked up relationship with food.
Angela Pugh [01:04:54]:
That’s why I didn’t eat food because it took up too much stomach space and I needed it for alcohol.
Ali Shapiro [01:04:58]:
So we had, like, the same issue but different outlets. Right? But I but I there was a loss. Like, I did feel a loss of, you know, just not being able to turn to that stuff anymore. I mean, it’s hard to remember, I think, because it’s been so long since I’ve had food issues, but I can look at my journals and I’m just like, I hate myself. I hate myself. You know, I mean, that brings me back. Right. I’m like, What the hell is wrong with you and all these things in my journals? But, do you think though that your Do you think your experience is the exception? Do you think most people go in there kind of begrudgingly? I mean, I would think I don’t know.
Angela Pugh [01:05:32]:
Yes. My my experience as a whole is is very different than most, for sure. I mean, I’ve never relapsed, but listen, I didn’t get to quitting drinking easily. You know, I really went through a lot, I was extremely broken, and almost killing somebody or thinking I killed somebody. That was enough. That’s all it took for me. But, again, I was so grateful because I was so tired of my life, and I hated myself so much, but it took something so extreme to get me to pay attention and to be really committed. And but I was so grateful to have a lifeline, and that’s what AA was for me is it was the lifeline.
Angela Pugh [01:06:16]:
It was a place I could go to learn how to be different, to learn how to grow up, to learn how I was screwed up, you know, in the ways I needed to change because I couldn’t identify any of those things. And it really was a lifeline, and it was a cheat sheet. It’s like they put everything I needed all together in one room, and all I had to do was show up and shut up. That’s all I had to do. Like, it couldn’t have been any more simple.
Ali Shapiro [01:06:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. And as we were saying earlier, we all have to walk ourselves to the understanding, right? Like, it can be kind of a logic puzzle. But kudos to you for just again, I know that’s a very dramatic experience, so I don’t want to dismiss that. And I think you hit on the change process is so like people think it’s linear, but it’s like, da da da da da da. Oh, yeah. You hit the tipping point, you know? Yeah. I mean, later, who knows? I mean, what is time? We can get very philosophical.
Ali Shapiro [01:07:12]:
But
Angela Pugh [01:07:13]:
it also was such a toxic relationship. And I always think about my relationship with alcohol like that, you know, because I was the same way in romantic relationships. I could pick really crappy people to have relationships with, but thank God I did not have the ability to stay long. You know what I mean? So if somebody was really treating me poorly, I could not stay. And it was kind of the same thing with alcohol. You know, the majority of my drinking life, I had a blast. My last 3 years were really dark and really sad and really broken and ugly. But by the time I lived those 3 years, I was so desperate for a different way.
Angela Pugh [01:07:55]:
And I was so ready to be out of that toxic relationship because it was so damaging and it was destroying me every day even more, like, I can’t even imagine being more destroyed because I was so I was such a mess, you know, but I just wanted out.
Ali Shapiro [01:08:13]:
Yeah. Yeah. When you made it happen. So, before we wrap up here, I’m just curious, are you using a similar process with as you kind of unravel your sugar stuff? Like well, let me back up. Have you ever looked at OA, like Overeaters Anonymous? And, like, have you considered trying that? Because that’s it’s kind of the AA equivalent, but not really. I mean, it’s not because, but it’s not like they eliminate all food, but they say like white foods, right? Which are like the refined products. But I’m curious how you’re going approaching that, given though that you already have increased capacity, right? You have resilience. Right.
Ali Shapiro [01:08:55]:
You have this Right. Knowing that it’s going to be better on the other side, whatever the other side looks like. So I’m just curious, like where are you in your own sugar, stuff? So here’s
Angela Pugh [01:09:07]:
where I am in sugar and food. It, of course, has been a really long journey. And for me, what I really focus on is self discipline. So for me, it’s not about the goal, it’s about what actions do I need to take? What kind of person do I need to be to achieve the goal? Right? And that means having some self control. It’s also understanding that I don’t wanna be self harming, and I can be really self harming with food, especially with sugar. I can be very self harming with sugar. So growing out of those habits and really focusing on changing my behavior and changing my thought process around those behaviors. Like, what is this really doing for me? How is this really serving me? Is there something else I could be doing instead of trying to eat my feelings? Or, you know, when I was just stranded in the Chicago airport for a day and a half, I was definitely drowning my feelings in sugar.
Angela Pugh [01:10:05]:
And, you know, I just was so low, and I was exhausted. I was like, I don’t care. I’m having the sugar. Give me all the sugar. I just don’t care. And I’ve been I’ve been basically sugar free since November, you know, so all of a sudden have this sugar binge was kind of crazy. I’ll tell you one thing that has really helped for me too is I have to have a very simple approach to things Because my brain overcomplicates everything and moves at such a pace that is exhausting for everyone, I will overthink and overcomplicate food until I really just get myself so upset and overwhelmed with the whole thing that I’m just like f it and I’m at the drive through. So I had to really find something simple enough that had some parameters that just worked for me.
Angela Pugh [01:11:01]:
And what that’s been for me is Whole30, right, which is just eating clean food. And it is considered a restriction diet. When you do it for the 1st 30 days, there’s a lot of things you don’t have. And I don’t follow it perfectly like that, like I did the 30 days. But you know, like, I don’t mind having a little bit of stuff here and there. But I love the simplicity of it. I mean, you’re basically eating meat, fruit and vegetables. There you go.
Angela Pugh [01:11:27]:
You know, so I don’t have to overthink it. And I’m not like, oh, I can’t have that. And I can’t have that. And you have to have some of this and you have to do that. And, like, I will drive myself crazy. It’s like figure out a meat, figure out a vegetable, have some fruit, shut up and move on with your life. And that’s what I need.
Ali Shapiro [01:11:44]:
Well, that’s so much of what my work is about and your work and where it overlaps is the self awareness. Like, what do I need to make this work? And I’m the same way with simplicity for me. I think, and my clients realize this, that the food is actually the easy part, right? It’s like all the drama around the food and going on different That’s part of the reactions that we have to understand. Like, why is it like, oh, now that, now that? And it’s often to avoid doing the emotional stuff, right? So, I’m with you. In fact, I said to Carlos, my husband, I’m like, Oh my God, if we ever won the lottery, the first thing I would do is hire a chef because
Angela Pugh [01:12:28]:
Because Because you know the hardest thing the hardest thing to me, food is much more challenging because there’s no abstinence. See, if I could just not ever eat anything, I’d be perfectly fine.
Ali Shapiro [01:12:43]:
But you
Angela Pugh [01:12:44]:
can’t not eat anything. Right? You have to have food to survive. So it’s like telling me that I can only have one glass of tequila a day. Like, it it can be miserable, you know, because as soon as I eat, certainly, if I eat things that I know are triggering for me, then it engages all of that craving and it engages the obsession. Because as an addicted person, we obsess. Like, if you put a bag of donuts on my counter right now, it is the only thing I would think about until it was gone. Like, no matter what I’m doing, that would be the only thing in the back of my head, I would be constantly thinking about that bag of doughnut. If I brought a bag of donuts in my house, it’s all I would eat until it was gone.
Angela Pugh [01:13:26]:
Right? So we are obsessive and compulsive. So when I have food, again, certainly food that doesn’t that I don’t respond well to, then it just engages all of that stuff. And that’s the worst part, but it’s also been one of the greatest tools in really being more disciplined, too. It’s like, I don’t wanna feel like that. I don’t wanna be fighting cravings for the next 2 days. I don’t wanna be thinking about ice cream or candy. Like, I just I don’t want to have the crash where I feel like I need to take a nap 20 minutes after I eat something. Like, I want to feel good.
Ali Shapiro [01:14:02]:
Yeah. Yeah. I had a client who is sober and she was saying that the challenge It reminds me when you were talking about like one glass of tequila a day, I think it’s also this she said, You know, with my sobriety, I can be perfect. I can do sobriety perfectly, but you can’t do food perfectly, right? Like your example of the Chicago airport is like, shit, I’m out of control. And not out of control with food. I’m out of control. And so, I have and I can’t control my food right now like in terms of the simplicity because Right. For everyone, Angela was in the Chicago airport for she was up for what, like 36 hours.
Ali Shapiro [01:14:39]:
I mean, What she went through was nightmare. And it’s like And you could even find food at 3 in the morning. So it is just I mean, if you need it for dinner or whatever. So it’s just food, it requires relating to things being imperfect and it’s a challenge because it makes us feel so triggered, I guess, is the word. So you’ve done a lot of interviews. Is there anything that I haven’t that you’re surprised someone hasn’t asked you yet?
Angela Pugh [01:15:09]:
No, I love that question, but I don’t think so. I think I probably over answer every question.
Ali Shapiro [01:15:18]:
No. It’s great. Is there anything that you wish I would have asked you that I didn’t is another one.
Angela Pugh [01:15:23]:
No, I don’t think so. I think it’s been really good.
Ali Shapiro [01:15:26]:
Yeah, I’ve loved it. And I love this overlap because there is so much overlap with alcohol and sugar. So tell everyone where they can find you. Well, and we’ll obviously have all of this stuff in the show notes, everybody.
Angela Pugh [01:15:41]:
So you can find me everywhere at addiction unlimited, addiction unlimited dot com, Instagram at addiction unlimited, Facebook Addiction Unlimited, all the things addiction unlimited.
Ali Shapiro [01:15:52]:
Wonderful. And again, we’ll have all of that in the show notes. So thank you so much for being here, Angela.
Angela Pugh [01:15:57]:
Thank you, Ali. This has been fantastic. Wonderful.
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