Today Elise Loehnen returns to Insatiable for a much-needed reminder that you don’t have to be good. And in fact, focusing on being “good” or “nice” might perpetuate your battle with food and leave you feeling deeply unfulfilled.
In this conversation, we unpack what it means to be whole, why it’s fine if some people don’t like you, and how to stop seeking external approval. We also tap into how the stories we tell about goodness impact our relationship to food and our body (including what the deepest layer of body image is really about).
Tune in for a huge permission slip to rest and replenish — even when you’d rather push through (and learn how this supports staying on track with your food). And stick around until the end for a great reframe for envy!
We discuss:
- How your desire to be “good” shows up in your daily life
- Ways to unhook from external validation
- The shadow & why it matters in midlife, health included
- Rejecting the “sin” of sloth & learning to rest
- MAHA and why it’s not selfish yet essential to tend to your inner life during political turmoil
- Envy as a GPS for your soul
More about our guest:
Elise Loehnen Fissmer is a writer and editor living in Los Angeles with her husband, Rob, and their sons, Max and Sam. She is the host of *Pulling the Thread* where she interviews cultural luminaries on the big questions of the day. While she’s co-written 12 books, including five New York Times Best Sellers, her first book under her own name, *On Our Best Behavior: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to Be Good* (Dial Press, an imprint of Penguin Random House), was also an instant New York Times bestseller. Previously, she was the chief content officer of goop, where she co-hosted The goop Podcast and The goop Lab on Netflix, and led the brand’s content strategy and programming, including the launch of a magazine with Condé Nast and a book imprint.
Connect with Sas Petherick:
- Preorder Elise’s new workbook Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness: A Process for Reclaiming Your Full Self
- Get Elise’s book On Our Best Behavior
- Listen to Elise’s podcast Pulling the Thread
- Follow Elise on Instagram @EliseLoehnen
Mentioned in this episode:
- Why Am I Eating This Now? — Get the free masterclass and earlybird pricing here
- Rethinking Food Guilt, Gluttony, and “Goodness” with Elise Loehnen
- Women’s Bodies, Envy, and Scarcity with Elise Loehnen (Part 2)
Connect with Ali & Insatiable:
Transcript
Ali Shapiro [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Insatiable, the podcast where we discuss the intersection of food, psychology and culture.
Elise Loehnen [00:00:09]:
If someone has a bad experience of me or I’m not their flavor or they don’t like me, it’s okay. I just need to try to be as whole and integral and myself as I can possibly be. That’s my mandate and the way that I’m received is outside of my control.
Ali Shapiro [00:00:27]:
I’m your host, Ali Shapiro, an integrated health coach, 32 year and counting cancer survivor, and have radically healed my relationship with food and my body. And for the past 17 years I’ve been working with clients individually in group programs and in company settings to do the same. Welcome. The information in this podcast should not be considered personal, individual or medical advice. Today we have Elise Lunan on, who’s been dubbed our cultural therapist to talk about her new workbook, Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness. Long term Insatiable listeners might have remembered Elise came on the pod about two years ago to talk about her book On Our Best Behavior. And this is the companion workbook so that once you can see your good girl conditioning, what are you going to do about it to change it and why does that really matter? Right. Well, if you struggle with falling off track with food, you find yourself overworking over parenting, over partnering, thinking that you have to take on every responsibility of everything that’s breaking right now.
Ali Shapiro [00:01:36]:
Chances are you are choosing goodness over wholeness. And so we’re going to talk about how to shift out of those long term patterns today with Elise. And the really cool thing about this workbook is there’s a lot of overlap with Truths, with food and the core process that we’re going to talk about with Elise today and she co wrote this book with a coach, Courtney Smith. So a lot of these things that we’ve lived with forever and we kind of feel like we’ve thrown all the things at it, right? That’s often when clients come to me with food. The reality is we’re not often getting to the root issue and Elise is going to illuminate some of what that root issue is today and we’re going to get into that and much more today where we go wide and deep, which are my favorite type of conversations. So those of you new to Elise, she’s a writer, editor and podcast host who lives in LA with her husband Rob and two sons, Max and Smith. She hosts the Pulling the Thread podcast which I really like, definitely check it out. And she is that podcast is focused on pulling apart the stories we tell about who we are and then putting those threads back together.
Ali Shapiro [00:02:47]:
She also writes a great substack that pulls at the thread of current events, and I find her to be a really solid place to land in these turbulent times for those of us who want to stay engaged, contribute positively, but not lose ourselves in an emotional overwhelm. And we talk about that, how to do that at the end and I will put a link to the workbook. It comes out on August, the end of August, I believe. August 28th. August 29th. But you can pre order it early. That really helps authors and this is the kind of work that we need to see live in the world. So go pre order it.
Ali Shapiro [00:03:26]:
So the link is in the show notes before we get to the episode. I do want to let you know that if this episode resonates especially about falling off track, being about certain triggers and emotional needs which I get into today, then I want to invite you to my fall program, which is essentially Truths with Food Step one called why Am I Eating this Now? And early bird registration is now open. And with early bird registration you get to save a hundred dollars on the program and you also get to get started right away so you can make even more progress in the fall. So when you join between now and August 31st, not only will you save $100, but you will get access to kind of so you fell off track again. Why does this make sense? This course I called your Emotional Eating Blueprint so you’ll get really clear on what your trigger is and what kind of needs you’re going to have to start meeting so that you don’t fall off track with your food and you can be consistent and get the type of results you want. So I’ll put a link in the show notes to that program page and on that program page is a free masterclass. So if you’re tired of food being the project of your life, you sense something’s deeper is going on but you don’t know what it is and you really want to really end this all or nothing perfectionism approach to food. Then check out the masterclass and I think you’ll see or you can decide after that if why I’m eating this now is the next step for you.
Ali Shapiro [00:04:55]:
So again, I’ll put a link to that in the show notes and I hope to see some some of you there. We always have a decent amount of insatiable listeners. For those of us who are podcast listeners, we it’s most of them. Most of the people in the group listen to Insatiable. And so these are The. This is the type of material we’re sifting through in the course. We are already about 50% full. So if you’re already starting to sense those back to school vibes, I’m.
Ali Shapiro [00:05:22]:
I’m here getting Essa ready for kindergarten. So I am full in. Like, we gotta go get a backpack. And it was a cool morning this morning. I’m like, don’t want to rush summer, but I do love fall. And that back to school feeling. Check it out. All right.
Ali Shapiro [00:05:36]:
Okay, now on to today’s episode, which I know you will just enjoy so much. Welcome back, Elise. I know insatiable listeners are going to be so happy to have you back. When we had you on last year, I got so many DMS from people who got your book, and they were like, thank you. Thank you. And I was like, yeah, she’s amazing. So thank you for coming back.
Elise Loehnen [00:06:03]:
My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:06:07]:
So you put a book out last year?
Elise Loehnen [00:06:11]:
- When was that? Two year. Two and two years ago. Yeah. Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:06:16]:
Oh, my God.
Elise Loehnen [00:06:17]:
I thought it was last year. What is time, Allie? What is time?
Ali Shapiro [00:06:22]:
I heard there’s this whole movement about, like, decolonizing time. I’m like, oh, my God. Even that’s a cultural construct. But it was about. On our best behavior and about how women are conditioned for goodness and men essentially conditioned for power. And then people were like, okay, now that we can see this, what do we do about it? And so now you have a companion workbook, right?
Elise Loehnen [00:06:47]:
Exactly. That is exactly what happened. And to be fair, when I took the book out and was talking to people and. And working with groups of women, when they. When it came to that question, like, okay, now I understand. I see it. What was obvious and yet invisible is now visible. And I understand the ways in which I’m participating in this and programmed to sort of perform my goodness ritually and somewhat sadistically.
Elise Loehnen [00:07:17]:
Yeah. What do I do? And to be fair, Ali, I didn’t. I didn’t know outside of becoming conscious of the stories and the patterns. I think that’s a huge. That’s like the. The. The big kahuna. But I am not a coach and I’m not a therapist, and I love to tell people everything that I am not.
Elise Loehnen [00:07:36]:
It’s one of the things that I do. But I’m. But I’m not. And so last May, I had been asked to do a workshop in North Carolina, and I said yes because it felt like something important for me to try. And then immediately I was like, I can’t do this. I don’t want to do this by myself. And so I asked my friend Courtney Smith, who’s this incredible coach. And she coaches primarily Enneagram, but within these other systems.
Elise Loehnen [00:08:05]:
And so I asked her if she’d want to do it with me because the sins, which is the superstructure of my book, are related to the Enneagram. And there’s all these weird concurrent. Like, our work is very concurrent. Anyway, I thought that we would roll in there and just sort of have this great chatty weekend with this group of 50 women. And she brought worksheets. She created a whole process that we went on, myself included. And it was amazing, I have to say, like, one, to be present, to, like, have someone take sort of the work and then spin it into something that can actually become a process of tools and unfolding where you see what you’re up to, and then you really commit to these stories, and then you make them really big and then you maybe put them down because you realize how ridiculous and energy consuming they are to maintain, et cetera. So one, it was just like, whoa, this is so cool to see this unfolding.
Elise Loehnen [00:09:12]:
And it was also incredibly meaningful. We got so much work done, myself included, in identifying the stories that run us in the various sort of sin containers, whether it’s gluttony or greed or lust or anger or envy or sloth or pride. And just watching women just like, it was this sort of like, rapid fire dawning of like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. And I see what the payoffs are for me believing this story about. For example, one of my stories in Sloth Alley is I’m the only one who can do it right, so I should do it all. I bet many people listening will be like, I also have that story right. So many of our stories are shared.
Elise Loehnen [00:09:59]:
You probably have that story too. And when I did this process that Courtney delineated, that’s in choosing Wholeness Over Goodness, the companion workbook, I was sort of blown away by how deep I hold this story, how it’s become so structural to my personality, how afraid I am to let it go. And also that it is constructed on fear and. And that all the behaviors and actions that I take in my life to make sure that this story is true, because I am so reliant on feeling that this. That I’m the only useful person in the household and. But it’s built on a fear, which I didn’t. Wasn’t conscious of that. Like, who would love me if I’m not useful? Like, obviously, Everyone is just dependent on me, and so that’s why they keep me around.
Elise Loehnen [00:10:54]:
My husband wouldn’t be married to me if I didn’t make everything so seamless and easy in his life. Clearly. Allie. Right? And again, none of this is coming from him. This is all my own internal story. And I do whatever I can to make sure that story is true. And, and that story has gotten me really far in my life and in my career. And I built all sorts of core competencies being the first person to raise my hand and the first person to do it, and I’m going to figure out how to do it right and be perfect and blah, blah, blah, blah.
Elise Loehnen [00:11:30]:
And then at this point, I’m like, I am exhausted, burnt out. I don’t know how to delegate. I don’t know how to accept support. I don’t know how to relax or rest. I don’t know. My husband has endless learned helplessness because I’ve cut him out of so many of the core processes of our life. So, like, of course he doesn’t know how to upload, like, the immunization records because he doesn’t have any of the logins. Allie.
Elise Loehnen [00:11:57]:
You know, I am participating in that.
Ali Shapiro [00:12:01]:
And longtime listeners of Insatiable will totally get that, because the premise of my whole work is that we turn to food for safety, belonging. It. Food stimulates attachment chemicals that mimic it, but it doesn’t give us the deeper caretaking that we need. And so we’re always talking about stories and how what you said, like, how I view myself is at the identity level, right? It’s. It’s not just like a habit that you can change. It’s like, who am I without this? Am I still going to belong? Am I still going to be safe? So I love that we’re talking about this because this, you’re the workbook. It’s not the same exact process, but it’s so many of the same themes of the work that I do with clients. I just, I’m so excited.
Elise Loehnen [00:12:41]:
Oh, good. Yeah, no, I’m sure it’s like, it’s fun because pretty much anytime I read a therapist book or talk to someone and they’re like, oh, I have a tool. And it’s like that, but different. It’s like. But they’re all sort of in the same toolbox, which is so, I think, so exciting. And then for each sin, we also have like a ton at times, like 7, 10 extra shift move tools from different practitioners around food or money or sloth, that for people who are like okay, I’m gonna try something else on. I need to do something differently.
Ali Shapiro [00:13:19]:
Yeah. And I love in the workbook, what you have is like you kind of have the core process. Cuz when I was in grad school studying all the different theories of change and development, I was kind of like, okay, but this has to universally apply. It can’t just apply to people who have resources or people who like, what are these universal truths? And I think you really exhibited that in the workbook because you had the core process. And then as you would say, the vertical right here’s like, what’s really happening underneath all of this. But the horizontal is how you’re going to recognize this in your day to day life.
Elise Loehnen [00:13:50]:
How to live it. Yeah. And to change it. Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:13:55]:
So one of the first questions I have for you is, because the title of the book is the workbook is Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness. In someone’s everyday life, what would be like the pain or the frustration that they might have that would make them want to like, oh my God, I am choosing goodness over wholeness.
Elise Loehnen [00:14:15]:
Yeah. So I essentially this idea that goodness is this primary value for women and that that’s what we need to perform in the world. Being a good mother, a good friend, a good co worker, having our good, quote unquote, good compliant bodies, and our selfless devotion to everyone else’s needs, and all the things that we sort of recognize or would categorize as the qualities of sort of a good girl or a good woman. It’s incredibly like. It’s like a slow strangulation. Because everything that doesn’t abide, all those moments when you are not so good or not so lovely, they. They get thrown into the shadow. You know, the Carl Jungian concept.
Elise Loehnen [00:15:02]:
Like, we repress and deny them because they don’t confirm or conform with this very strict idea of what it is to be ourselves in the world. And so that’s also, I mean, you get into it all the time with like, you know, food is such an easy example. I was bad last night. I need to be good today. Like, I. It’s just baked into how we see ourselves. Right. So with wholeness, it’s this idea that like, Allie and Elise are whole people and we are full of like, beautiful parts and less savory parts.
Elise Loehnen [00:15:40]:
Says who? Right. That’s one of the big questions, like, who gets to decide so much of this? I’d say, like, this whole book is about the cultural shadow of women and we each hold our own version of it, but these are like cultural ideals. That we have been programmed to. And so most of them, yes, will have our own flavor, and that’s been conditioned into us through our genetics or our family or whatever it is. But most of these are held as, like, cultural shadow, right? We’re talking about these cultural ideals that are very hard. Very hard to break. And. But wholeness is this idea that, like, I.
Elise Loehnen [00:16:19]:
I’ll give you a really easy example. I was having, you know, lunch with a friend, and this is actually, like, sort of the genesis of my next book, which is about shadow and polarity. But I was like, you know, everyone who’s ever worked with me has. Has really liked me. Like, everyone thinks I’m. I’m really nice. And she looked at me. She’s like, one of these older mentors, wise woman in my life, who’s also an enneagram type 8 and aggressively honest.
Elise Loehnen [00:16:48]:
And she was like, what? Like, do you. You believe that? And I was like, yeah. Like, I hold that very dearly. What do you mean? I’m, like, really fair. And, you know, I just kept. I was like, getting exercised. She was like, honey, like, I promise, there are people who did not like you and do not like you. There are people who hate you.
Elise Loehnen [00:17:10]:
I’m sure there, you made people cry at their therapist’s office. You also made people laugh. Like, you really think you can control the way that people feel about you? And I was like, well, I mean, I work really hard at the rate, like, my teeth clenching. And she was like, oh, babe. Like, God, you have to. That’s. That’s hilarious. And, like, you have so much work to do about that.
Elise Loehnen [00:17:38]:
And as she was talking, I could feel all my anxiety, right? Like, oh, my God, who have I hurt? Who doesn’t like me? Who’s gonna say something bad about me? Like, you know, just that panting of fear. And then as I think about it, as you, like, hold this idea, okay? Like, wholeness, not goodness, right? Wholeness. Of course people. Not everyone’s gonna like me. Not everyone likes you, Ali. Most likely. Like, I know people don’t like me. I see it in my podcast reviews, right? Where people are like, I hate your voice.
Elise Loehnen [00:18:06]:
It’s less now where it’s my show, but when I used to co host a big podcast, people were like, I want the other one. Your voice is annoying. Why you and not me? But anyway, it would it, needless to say, like, that’s. That’s what I’m talking about. And if someone has a bad experience of me or I’m not their flavor, or they don’t like. Like me. That’s okay. It’s okay.
Elise Loehnen [00:18:32]:
I just need to sort of try to be as whole and integral and myself as I can possibly be. That’s my mandate. And the way that I’m received is outside of my control. But that’s a very different feeling of, like, okay, I’m not going to be for everyone, and that’s okay. Not everyone is for me, but. And that’s. That’s the wholeness, and that’s the. Yeah, I can be grumpy.
Elise Loehnen [00:18:58]:
And, yeah, it’s part of being human. I’m human. I’m not a. I’m not an avatar. I’m not an AI, actually.
Ali Shapiro [00:19:06]:
Which is more and more valuable.
Elise Loehnen [00:19:08]:
Yeah, Right. But it’s just we’re whole, and our jobs, I think, are to, like, integrate these parts of ourselves and embrace them and. And bring them into ourselves and not to pretend like they’re not there, not to eradicate them. I think that supercharges them, you know, with, like, an incredible amount of energy, both the energy that we’re using to suppress and repress and deny these very human parts of ourselves. And I think it also, like, can be sensed from other people that you’re sort of trying to keep things at bay that are a part of who you are. People can see them, you know.
Ali Shapiro [00:19:44]:
Well, and this gets to, I think, why your book was so valuable. I mean, for many reasons, I love. But, you know, in developmental psychology, they call it subject, object, mood, which is basically like, you can’t. Like, you. You can’t change anything until you can see it, right? And that ex. And then you can kind of put it on the table and say, like, what do I want to do with this? Until until then, it’s. It’s controlling you whether you, you know, work with it or not. And I think what’s so persnickety about being conditioned for goodness is in your example of, like, okay, but I’m nice, right? We don’t even realize that unconsciously what we’re measuring is niceness.
Ali Shapiro [00:20:21]:
And it’s like, okay, and. But we’ve been conditioned to believe you need everyone to like you versus, like, as you, you know, mature and grow, it’s like, oh, I don’t need everybody. I need alignment. Instead of, like, what you were. I think what you’re just describing is alignment. But if we don’t know we’re measuring these things and these sins that you’ve outlined in the workbook and your book, it’s like, we keep being like, oh, they didn’t like me. And then we make it mean that we’re wrong instead of like, maybe I’m paying attention to the wrong things.
Elise Loehnen [00:20:50]:
Well, and it just keeps us in this, like, entrained on the other and seeking the approval of some external validating source rather than like, how am I feeling about myself? And how am I. How conscious of I am I about my own actions? And if I behave in a way that doesn’t align with who I want to be in the world, can I take responsibility and accountability for that and say, you know, like, can I be flexible? Can I be less rigid? Can I be less guarded about this? Can I, can I even say, you know, I think when you’re like, I’m going to be the nicest boss ever, you can’t see, you don’t let yourself see those moments when you’re not. But I think if you’re just letting yourself be human and hopefully is like, evolved and kind and, and fair, all those things. Sure. But to be like, I’m sorry I was really short with you, or like, to allow, like, actually that wasn’t my best self that gave you feedback on that project.
Ali Shapiro [00:21:50]:
Yeah, I mean, it just makes me think about the way that I understand perfectionism and in my work is like, you don’t want to take risks, right? Like, you’re like, okay, if I do this perfectly, there’s no risk of judgment, no risk of, of disappointing people, getting mad. But often, to your point, people can kind of sense that. And, and it’s people who are like, oh, I, I, I fucked up. Like, I’m sorry. Right? It’s like, oh, my God, like, thank you. And it, it builds more of the safety, the emotional safety I think that we’re actually looking for. But it’s, it’s so scary because you have to get out of that meaning matrix of like, you know, oh, my God, but I’m supposed to be nice, and if I’m not nice, like you were saying, the flexibility. It’s like, then, I mean, and it’s like, well, it’s not, it’s not.
Ali Shapiro [00:22:30]:
There’s no, no extreme. Right. It’s like, no, maybe you were having an off day and you’re inherently good and you’re, you’re allowed to be human.
Elise Loehnen [00:22:39]:
You know, complex, messy, human. Right? Yeah, Yeah, A hundred percent. That subject, object thing, I think is so. I had never heard that. And, but yes, I think to create distance, you have to be able to see what you’re up to. You have to be able to create some distance even from your Feelings so you can actually look at what’s, what’s driving you and what’s happening.
Ali Shapiro [00:23:01]:
Well, and when you do that, like, you know, one of the questions I always tell my clients or people on the podcast when they’re turning to food and don’t wanting to be like, the first question is, why does it make sense? Right? Like, why does it make sense? Instead of, like, beating yourself up, but it’s implying this wholeness is there. And then, like, you get better information, like, when you’re in shame, right? Your amygdala is like, in that binary, even if you’ve developed out of being able to think more flexibly, you can’t. And so it’s like, why does this make sense? Like, we are trying to your point. Like, you know, well, and even in developmental psych, they would say the first 20, 25 years, we are attuned outwards to care about what other people think. Like, we. We need our caregivers to care about us. I had Dr. Deborah McNamara on the podcast, and she’s a child developmental psychologist, and she talked about how with, you know, Maslow and his hierarchy of needs, they didn’t have neuroscience yet.
Ali Shapiro [00:23:58]:
And now we know that neuroscience shows that actually belonging is more important than your primary needs because your caretakers secure your primary needs. And then in her book, she also talks about how Maslow didn’t have a great relationship with his parents, so he would never know what good attachment is. And so it makes sense why we care so much for other people about other people the first 20 so years of our lives. But to mature, right? And really, you know, I’ve listened to your interview on pulling the thread with Richard. Wert like to grow up, not just get older. Right. We have to look at kind of what we’re orienting around. And that’s.
Ali Shapiro [00:24:34]:
That’s scary, I think. But you, you doing having this workbook and, you know, these kind of conversations, I think it gets people to be like, oh, my God, this isn’t like, how it has to be.
Elise Loehnen [00:24:45]:
Yeah, no. And I think a critical part of growing up is, is orienting around yourself and not like, in a selfish, like, go, just not, not in the way that you could potentially, like, take that, but in this, like, what do I want? What do I need? What’s happening here? What’s happening in my body? What am I hungry for? Rather than hoping that someone’s going to make those calls for you.
Ali Shapiro [00:25:13]:
I’m glad you said that because the way. And I would love for you to articulate your, like, version of shadow for people who. That this might be new to, because for people, if you, if you have a shadow of taking care of yourself, like I love how you say in the workbook, a huge story we have is that women aren’t supposed to have needs, right? So if you aren’t allowed to have needs, you’re going to hear taking care of yourself, as selfish, as needy as all these judgments. And so. So can you tell us what the shadow is, Elise?
Elise Loehnen [00:25:46]:
Yes. I mean, and it’s one of those amazing concepts where it is there. There are a million definitions, although they are mostly coherent and saying the same thing. But shadow is a. A term, a concept from Carl Jung. It’s one of his major themes. And it is an incredibly ripe and useful term to describe those parts of ourselves that we disown and refuse to see because they don’t align with our desired personality or ego. And some of those things are notes from the culture, again, about, like, who you should be and how you should show up in the world.
Elise Loehnen [00:26:27]:
And some of them are, you know, our baser human instincts that we refuse to look at our own. And poet Robert Bly has this great quote, essentially where he’s like, the shadow is the trash bag that you fill until midlife with all those parts of yourself that you refuse to see. And then you spend the rest of your life trying to get things out of the bag, right? And so many of us, I think, depending on our childhoods or our parents or the cultural or social expectations beyond, just like the wider cultural ideals, put a ton of stuff in our shadow. I think, for people who are raised in purity culture, right? Like, they’re. They have a huge sexual shadow of all that disowned, very human stuff. I mean, and then you see disowned shadow, particularly. I mean, we see it play out hugely in our culture in very devastating ways in religious groups, right? If you’re not constantly doing your own shadow work and essentially doing the core process on yourself and integrating these parts of yourself, they will come out. So you look at the Catholic Church, you look at many Eastern gurus, right? You look at, I mean, there’s like endless, endless amounts of spiritual trauma in these cultures that are like, we are all light and good.
Elise Loehnen [00:27:55]:
It’s a big problem. But on a personal level, the shadow will have some of that from the culture, your personal shadow. But it will also have sort of the own, your own, the stuff that you would deny about who you are and the way that you justify, like, well, I can do this, but that person can’t that’s all shadow material. Right. Your ability to even identify that in someone else something you dislike or hate is a sign like it’s in your shadow.
Ali Shapiro [00:28:23]:
Yes. Really extreme judgments, meaning that you’re, that you’re on to something. I wanted to go through a couple of the sins that are also in the shadow of why people basically fall off track with food. So I wonder if, if you’re game for some of that.
Elise Loehnen [00:28:46]:
Yeah, let’s do it.
Ali Shapiro [00:28:48]:
So you talked about the sin of sloth, which we talked about earlier, which I just love that. And I think especially because I also think of what gets projected onto fatness is laziness. And so in the book you talk about we need rest, but what we really start to do is anytime we rest, we think we’re being sloth. Like we think we’re being lazy. So talk to us about why we need rest. But it’s in the shadow.
Elise Loehnen [00:29:16]:
It’s totally in the shadow. And, and it’s driven sort of by the endless doing that needs to be done and endless needs that need to be attended to. And it’s. We live not only in a productivity culture, we certainly live in that. But I think for women it’s just like this also ratcheting up of, you know, moms in particular can relate to and I. But I think every age group pre child has their own variation of this. Right. Whether it’s like endless skincare rituals or you know, the bento box lunch that you should be packing where it’s this like you should be doing all of this stuff all the time and there’s just like an endless encyclopedia of ways that you should be working on yourself or your image, tending to your children, putting together the perfect house, improving your mind, yada, yada yada.
Ali Shapiro [00:30:08]:
Working at aging. Now we all have to work at aging.
Elise Loehnen [00:30:10]:
Yes. Our longevity is a full time job. I mean you can imagine how many thoughts I have about that. And these men who refuse to die says a lot about our culture. It’s like, it’s truly like the pattern is like so pathological and odd. But yeah, I mean, yes, like it’s that. And so, and I think that really like the, the we’re fearful of rest because we’re so uncomfortable with all of our discomfort. Right.
Elise Loehnen [00:30:39]:
We’re so. It’s. And I recognize this is my big thing. It’s like I numb through busyness and I don’t want to sit and think about sort of the state of the world. I’ll just go and do a bunch of stuff. I’M going to go and like organize my kids room, you know, because then I’ll feel like I really did a lot that day and. But mostly it’s, it’s a move so that I can soothe myself from being in discomfort or being with any of my feelings or letting my unconscious mind process, which is what comes with rest. It’s why, like, we gotta rest because we.
Elise Loehnen [00:31:17]:
That’s when the big insights come. It’s like they’re not coming after you’re in your lab at 18 hours. Like the, the breakthrough is coming when you’re have, have a dream or you’re on a walk or you’re listening to music, you know? Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:31:31]:
I love in the book. My jaw kind of dropped when you were like, we. You talked about Einstein. When did he discover relativity?
Elise Loehnen [00:31:39]:
Like he was listening to music, I.
Ali Shapiro [00:31:41]:
Think, oh, music and Steve Jobs. You give the example of him like walking barefoot and it’s like, okay, women have never really been given that kind of space and like to. And, and we. You need that for those kind of like intellectual breakthroughs or insights or whatever. Whatever problem you’re trying to work on. You need that rest. And I think that’s. Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:32:03]:
So I just love that you brought that up in the book.
Elise Loehnen [00:32:06]:
I think that we have very much subscribed to the story that nothing good or worthy comes without like endless hard, grinding work. And I think you subscribe to that story. I do too. It’s like, if it’s easy, it’s not real. Effortless. Could never. Like, it’s not fair somehow. Like, I need to.
Elise Loehnen [00:32:25]:
Everything I need, I. I earn in my life. God, I’m gonna earn it, Ali. Like, I’m gonna kill myself. There’s some sort of like, process that has me in its thrall and I think it has a lot of women in its role. Like, we can’t make it easy because then it’s not real. I don’t think men have this same conditioning, but that’s a big one.
Ali Shapiro [00:32:48]:
And.
Elise Loehnen [00:32:49]:
But the reality is I always felt this way about dating. Like, I don’t know, it was like, felt like an aha when I was in my 20s where I was like, this is all sort of like fed to us as you gotta get on these apps and you gotta go on a bunch of dates and. And da da, da. I’m like, it’s not like dating school. It’s not like you go on enough dates and then you’re good at being married. But it’s sort of said, it’s, it’s presented to us, I’m like, the reality is, like, it takes one encounter, you, which could be anywhere, and suddenly you’re like, I think you’re my person. Right? It doesn’t always happen like that. But that.
Elise Loehnen [00:33:26]:
But it. It’s part of this, like, psychology of, like, everything has to be hard and endless for it to be good. That’s a big part of our thinking.
Ali Shapiro [00:33:39]:
I have to think that goes back to, like, productism. And it’s like, oh, the harder you’re working, the more it looks like you’re chosen. So I went with postpartum and menopause at the same time, and I had to completely, like, rethink how I worked and all this stuff. And I’ve been unraveling that. But one of the ways that, like, I was able to start to even be open to it is I, in my own work, like, I try to explain to clients, the more you work on your food, the worse the results. Like, you know, like, it’s like, okay, maybe you’re thinking food noise has, like, maybe your blood sugars, you know, plummeting and, or, and. Or you have these safety issues, and it’s like, you’re going to get better results when you actually do less. But it’s that bigger belief of, like, I have to work hard, I can’t earn it.
Ali Shapiro [00:34:22]:
That is so hard for people to be open, open to that. But it’s like, do you get better results when you’re, like, thinking about food all day? It’s like, no, that exhausts me, right? Like, the irony is it takes all the glucose in your brain to think about the food, and then your body’s like, I need energy for the rest of my life.
Elise Loehnen [00:34:39]:
Yeah. Well, I think in. And this is in the workbook, but at the core of all of our stories are these, like, basic fears, right? Fear of loss of approval, fear of loss of control, fear, ultimately, of loss of safety and security. And when I think about food, for me, at least, like, it’s always been a story of control, right? And trying to, like, make my body, even making my body abide by, like, a calories in, calories out edict. And I’m like, this is the math is a mathing. But, like, I can control this. I should be able to control this, right? And for me, as you just said, like, of course it has to do with safety. It has to do with approval.
Elise Loehnen [00:35:21]:
It has to do with all of those core things. And like, I should. In a material world, I should be able to, like, drive the result through my effort. And if Anything. I think women like a reframe of that. Is that because it’s so hard for so many of us, we get, like, an incredible training in some ways in surrender and in, like, something that’s spiritual because it will not be controlled.
Ali Shapiro [00:35:54]:
Like, if we’re gonna get, like, a little more deeper. Like, I. Whenever I ask people, like, you know, what is. What is, like, when you feel fat? Because I don’t think fat is a feeling. Like, what do you. What is the main feeling you feel? And they’re like, disgust. And I’m like, that is a metaphor for a disgust for your softness, like, your emotional vulnerability. And then once they can start to see that, I’m like, it just.
Ali Shapiro [00:36:18]:
It gives them agency to realize, like, oh, this body image stuff, like, isn’t right actually most deeply about the body. It’s like, this is just a dumping ground for all of this softness that’s in the shadow. Right. Like, if we’re going to track it with the workbook. But it’s. It’s like, oh, this is. This is about. I love how you guys talk about the middle path in.
Ali Shapiro [00:36:37]:
In the workbook. I call it option C. Like, it’s like, okay, what is. Like, you know, if we’re going to do. Also, I love what you talk about on the podcast, like, transcendent include. Like, we’ve been told health is just about weight loss, but what if it’s. What if there’s more to it? Like, what if there’s other elements that are safety, that it’s nourishment, but it’s all the stuff that’s in the shadow. So it’s like, it takes a while to, like, actually start to value that.
Ali Shapiro [00:37:02]:
So, yeah, it. It’s. To me, like, the. The middle path between control and out of control is like, choice, right? It’s. It’s like, okay, you can’t control what’s gonna. What happens to you, but how you respond, which is true. But annoying when you’re, like, really struggling, right?
Elise Loehnen [00:37:17]:
Definitely. But I think, you know, and I see this, you know, having worked in wellness for a long time, too, and watching, like, sort of the craziness that’s emerged in the last couple years, that’s, like, so extreme with Maha, for example, and it’s like, I get it, but, like, we’re so convinced and which is really. It’s led by men, too, but definitely, like, a very vocal contingent of Maha moms who are just scared. Really. It’s just fear. And there’s this, like, foundational belief. Like, if I can just Control all the inputs, then I can keep everyone safe. And it’s unfortunate.
Elise Loehnen [00:37:58]:
Like, that’s not how it works, guys. Like environmental health and cultural health and equitable society and access to good food. I mean, on and on and on is far more impactful on our health than like, whether we’re letting our kids have M&Ms, you know, plus, like, the anxiety. I’m sure you see this in your work too, but I would watch this sort of like mental illness develop. There’s orthorexia, but it’s sort of different of like fixation on trying to control everything where I’m like, this is far worse for your health. Like, your fear at a restaurant, your fear of ingredients is like devastating to your body compared to trying to sort of relax into life, which is like, we kind of get. We kind of don’t control actually much of anything.
Ali Shapiro [00:38:52]:
I know this is the whole thing with, like, even to me, functional medicine has gone off the rails because it is not addressing the deeper stress that, like an extreme protocol like that. Right. And the people who are often selling this stuff, it’s like their whole life revolves around health versus the people that are coming to you. They don’t. This stresses them out. And then they feel like they’re not doing it perfectly. And also, we know from gut health, like, the more variety you have. Right.
Ali Shapiro [00:39:18]:
Not eliminating. So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s. You’re right, that loss of control. And. Yeah, I mean, I, I, yeah, I understand. Maha and I would have a very different approach to, to fixing things.
Elise Loehnen [00:39:32]:
Yeah, no, it’s very, it’s, yeah, it’s deeply, it’s troubling and sad watching sort of what’s happening to all of the regulations around our environment and programs cut. That gave fresh, fresh food to kids at school and cutting snap. And I mean, it’s devastating.
Ali Shapiro [00:39:53]:
I know. I was like, I can control if my kids have food dyes or not. I can’t control the air particle pollution or PIFAs in my water. I mean, yes, I have a reverse osmosis system, but it’s like, you can’t outrun that stuff eventually. Right. I think this is a nice run into gluttony. But one thing I just wanted to mention for listeners because I often talk about the tire trigger being like a main reason people fall off with food. And I found in my groups that we actually have changed the word rest to replenishment.
Ali Shapiro [00:40:23]:
Because when people hear rest, they think of like sitting on net on the couch watching Netflix with ice cream. Or like, sitting on the couch all weekend. And we just wrapped up my truths with food group, and this woman was like, I just. Rest is so different to me now. Like, it is when I’m stressed taking a walk and, like, getting things moving or it is not listening to a podcast while I’m at the, you know, at the gym or something. So I just wanted to, like, put that for some people who are listening and have that kind of other extreme in their mind, that of rest, just being like, I made it through the week. That sometimes can be a helpful reframe.
Elise Loehnen [00:41:00]:
It’s essential. I wish I were better at taking my own advice and really. But, like, I’m constantly looking for ways, too, to sort of, like, buffer it in. Like, now that I work for myself and I’ve been doing this for five years, but still, it’s like actually creating boundaries. It’s like a good forcing function to be like, I am not working on vacation because I just let it all slide. And then I sort of get like, the half and half, you know, where I’m like, I didn’t get my to do list done on vacation, and I didn’t really allow myself to have my vacation, which is a terrible result, you know?
Ali Shapiro [00:41:35]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Elise Loehnen [00:41:40]:
So I think boundaries, like, rules, you know, are really important, particularly in this, like, when you’re of clear mind to be, like, looking. Looking at your calendar and being like, I’m taking the Sabbath, or, like, nothing’s happening on Sundays, period, you know?
Ali Shapiro [00:41:56]:
Yeah. I also think, like, we have to also think, like, what is it costing.
Elise Loehnen [00:42:01]:
Us to not rest?
Ali Shapiro [00:42:02]:
Because, like, for my clients, they tend to be workaholics. They’re gonna love this book and sloth. And I kind of find, like, the first, like, notch for them to try is I’m like, take a walk and see how it actually helps your productivity. Like, see how, like, when you’re going, like, that unconscious, you know, marination that you were talking about in the workbook, like, that tends to happen. And it’s like, okay, I can start to. I can feel safe to try that because at least I’m still kind of. It’s in service of more productivity. But I think over time, and I don’t know, I found for me, menopause is, like, what took me down from it.
Ali Shapiro [00:42:34]:
Like, it wasn’t something I went with willingly, like, to slow down and rest. It was just like, oh, I. I realized it was like, the root cause of my insomnia. It’s like, okay, your cortisol is going to Be so high that if you don’t take rest throughout the day anymore, like you’re going to pay for it. So I get how hard it is. So gluttony, let’s go on to that thing because that is the one that is like very obviously about food. And I love that you shared in the book, like, you’re like, I can’t. Like you said you had gained 15 pounds.
Ali Shapiro [00:43:04]:
And you’re like, I don’t want to care, but I care. And I find that so many people are in that situation with like, you know, there’s a difference between the theory and then how it gets practiced, but the health at every size, movement, body positivity, like, we were all like, okay, diet culture is toxic. We, we needed that. And then. Yet some people are like, now I feel guilty cuz I feel like really uncomfortable in my body. And I’m not saying you said that, but like my clients will, you know.
Elise Loehnen [00:43:31]:
No, but it’s true. I think I had sort of like, you know, after spending almost a decade in the wellness world and feeling just like. And being at a younger age, quite frankly, you know, after I had my first kid in my 30s, I worked really hard and I was in amazing shape. And then when I had my second at the in my late 30s, I just never kind of physically recovered in the same way. I didn’t have time. Everything was different, everything was harder. The things that had helped me in my early 30s didn’t work anymore. And then Covid happened and I left my job and I was sort of in this, like, what I would recognize now, sort of like in this rebellion against being very quote, unquote healthy for 10 years or whatever that was.
Elise Loehnen [00:44:23]:
And then feeling like, well, screw it, you know, I don’t, I don’t want to do this anymore. Like, I’m not that person. I’m outgrowing who I was and that definitely. And I work from home, so it’s like there’s already less daily movement in my life, even when I sort of like get myself up and go on a walk. But yeah, so I gained, you know, £15, probably maybe 20, I don’t know. But anyway, yeah, it happened and then. But what was really interesting to me has been sitting with it and being like, I don’t want to be this person who is like, I don’t really fit into my clothes. I don’t really want to buy new clothes.
Elise Loehnen [00:45:03]:
I’m uncomfortable. I don’t really like how I look. I feel somewhat like different, you know, just all of that and Then. And then getting into doing some of the work, like, getting back to, like, really regular exercise, just pulling, sort of like pulling the various cords and then being like, nothing’s happening. I’m not, like, eating enough. I know I’m not eating enough and nothing’s happening. And so I’ve had to sit with all of that and. And sort of get really clear about what’s happening here and not blaming anyone.
Elise Loehnen [00:45:40]:
Nobody cares except for me. You know, it’s true. True. I mean, no one notices. And my husband doesn’t. He doesn’t care, you know, but it is really interesting to be like. To fight myself. Like, you’re not allowed to care about this.
Elise Loehnen [00:45:57]:
This is so stupid. And this is a waste of your energy. And you’re promoting the stuff that you say that you don’t believe in. And, you know, all of that. It’s like, I still have all of that in my shadow, you know.
Ali Shapiro [00:46:11]:
Yeah. Because for those of us who grew up dieting and. Ugh, it’s awful. And again, I think the binary that created a lot of this overreact. Not. I don’t want to say overreactivity, but like, you know, Bucky Fuller said, like, you know, if you’re just reacting against something, you know, you’re not going to create a solution that’s ultimately going to get people out of this back and forth. Because I have some clients who. They are in their 50s and tried the way they understood health at every size, and now they have a lot of health conditions that we have to kind of unravel, you know? Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:46:41]:
But I. And I always say, like, I think the belief is that, like, weight loss has to damage your relationship to yourself. And so then that’s what creates this backlash versus how can it be about holistic nourishment so that we can do it in a way that you’re getting safety from. So many people aren’t eating enough. Right. And I loved how you talked about in the book, you were working with Chinese medicine or he’s not Chinese medicine.
Elise Loehnen [00:47:06]:
Korean. Yeah. Like the. Yeah. Eight. Constitutional medicine. Yeah. No, and I loved it because it was like.
Elise Loehnen [00:47:13]:
Yeah. It gave me back a lot of the things that I had sort of considered to be bad.
Ali Shapiro [00:47:17]:
Yeah. Because there’s this overall.
Elise Loehnen [00:47:19]:
Right.
Ali Shapiro [00:47:19]:
Because part of what I love about the workbook is just coming back to, like, how are we trained to be good? And overall, it is a. It is a strategy of restriction. Right. Whether it’s rest, whether it’s food, whether it’s wealth, it’s. It’s like, oh, there’s that, like, I assume to be good, I have to restrict in some way. And you were saying in the book, like, you got back some of your favorite foods versus other foods, you were kind of just naturally didn’t like. Anyways, he was like, yeah, those don’t harmonize or, like, tone your organs. And it was like, oh, like, I can enjoy my food and feel good.
Ali Shapiro [00:47:51]:
It’s.
Elise Loehnen [00:47:52]:
Yeah, it’s this Korean system of. Of acupuncture. And the idea is that there are eight constitutions, and two of them are very meat heavy, two of them are essentially vegan, and four of them are somewhere in between. And that it depends. Your constitution depends on the strength of your organs. And they’re looking for balance. And so you’re. You’re.
Elise Loehnen [00:48:13]:
You’re feeding sort of the energy of. I don’t know exactly which organs they’re. They’re assessing. But in talking to me and sort of like taking my pulse and muscle testing. And it was really interesting because what he told me, my constitution was very much aligned with my nature. You know, it’s like in Covid, I got a sauna like everyone else.
Ali Shapiro [00:48:35]:
I did too.
Elise Loehnen [00:48:37]:
Yeah. But he was like, you should not be hot. Like, bad for you. Do not exercise in the heat. I used to do that all the time. I would get migraines and, like, nauseous, you know, he was like, bad, bad, super temperate temperatures, like. And yeah, he was like, no shrimp, no shellfish, no shrimp, no cucumbers. Like, things that I hate and have sort of a natural aversion to were taken away from me, which was fine cause I wasn’t eating them.
Elise Loehnen [00:49:05]:
But then he was like, you’re fine with corn, corn, all kinds of potatoes, dairy, et cetera. Things that I had just sort of like, consigned to the bad, bad heap and. And given up. And so it was. It was fun, you know, and it made so much intuitive sense.
Ali Shapiro [00:49:29]:
One of the things I love that you do in the book because again, that subject object move, like half of my framework is getting people to see, like, what’s actually happening. And I love what you do is you. In each chapter, you pick kind of like three characters.
Elise Loehnen [00:49:42]:
Yeah, the Personas.
Ali Shapiro [00:49:43]:
Yeah, the Personas. So is there one in the gluttony chapter that you kind of are. Are like, wrestling with?
Elise Loehnen [00:49:50]:
Yeah, I mean, there’s like. Yeah, so, okay, so for context, for people in this court process, like, you. You identify. You do this process called fact versus story. You. You identify the story, and you. You will identify a ton of Stories. And then you sort of see what has the most juice.
Elise Loehnen [00:50:04]:
Then we take you through this process where you make it really big. You understand the payoffs and the costs. And you even teach a class to a woman’s college about how to make sure they believe the story. They live by this story too, which is, I think, so funny and so powerful because you’re like, oh, right, I’m just like passing it on, passing it on.
Ali Shapiro [00:50:27]:
And it also forces you to get clear on what you’re actually doing. Like, if I was going to instruct someone, someone to like, you know, that extra, I was like, this is genius.
Elise Loehnen [00:50:36]:
It’s. It’s an amazing exercise. Then you get to Personas and Persona play, which is really fun. And it, it’s. This is from Katie and, and gay Henriks. And also there’s like, it’s kind of Richard Schwartz ifs work, which is this idea that there are these Personas or parts of us that really come out to play. Like, I have a big people pleasing part of Persona. I have Bag Lady Bethy, which is one I learned from my mother that’s convinced that like one poor financial decision or overspend and I’m going to be sleeping out of a car.
Elise Loehnen [00:51:08]:
This was like truly her like, alter ego. And with Food, it’s like, I think one, we have one that’s like Jane Fonda, I can’t remember. But it’s this like part. This Persona that I have that like slags me off for like, being lazy and not exercising enough. And like, you’re gross. And so part of it is like, there, there’s a whole Persona interview, but once you identify your Personas, it’s like inviting them to the table, interviewing them. Like, what is. What are they scared of? What are they trying to protect you from? Where did they learn this? And it’s like a great way to create a little bit more humanity around how these are survival mechanisms and that there’s some part of you that comes alive when it feels like you are in danger and to, to sort of put you back on course and to make sure that you abide, you know, by the story.
Elise Loehnen [00:52:08]:
So let me just see which ones I have in Food.
Ali Shapiro [00:52:09]:
Because you had Jane Fonda Jr. I work out compulsively. I am scared of what might happen if I take a day off.
Elise Loehnen [00:52:16]:
Yeah. I think so many of us like have that Persona. Right? Like if you slip, it’s not done. Like one morsel and you’re. You’re screwed. Right.
Ali Shapiro [00:52:28]:
And again, being able to see these and I Love how you guys have some humor with them because, like, humor is medicine, right? Like, we have to, like.
Elise Loehnen [00:52:35]:
Yeah. You have to make it funny and big and like, laugh with yourself.
Ali Shapiro [00:52:39]:
Yes, yes, yes.
Elise Loehnen [00:52:42]:
Oh, yeah. Weight Watcher Winona is one.
Ali Shapiro [00:52:44]:
Yeah. And that one is my mood hinges on my daily date with my scale. If I’m more than £1 above my goal weight, I don’t eat or I eat very little that day.
Elise Loehnen [00:52:54]:
Yeah. And I think that’s a big Persona for a lot of us. Right? Like checking in on our value in the morning and then deciding, like, how permissive we get to be, you know?
Ali Shapiro [00:53:05]:
Yeah. I identified most with Betty Binge Crocker. I. I mean, it’s even funny. I can laugh cause I threw it. But it’s not gonna learn. Although I exercise impeccable self control until I walk past the break room. Once I eat one brownie, it’s over.
Ali Shapiro [00:53:19]:
I need three or four or the whole pan. Then I feel ill and full of self hatred. Like, that was my life for 15 years. I get that one a lot. I mean, I understand it deeply.
Elise Loehnen [00:53:29]:
Yeah. But. But then you can imagine, like, when you go and you do that Persona interview with Betty. Betty Ben Crocker, you’re like, oh, I totally understand why this story makes sense or. Or what it’s feeding, like, what it’s based in. And then you can maybe put it down and do something different or at least like when it’s there, be like, hi, Betty Binge Crocker. I see you. Like, let’s talk, you know.
Elise Loehnen [00:53:54]:
Yeah.
Ali Shapiro [00:53:56]:
And everyone in the workbook, you get a lot of these tools and practices. So you can do this in a very organized. You can tell two women did this book in a thorough or well organized.
Elise Loehnen [00:54:08]:
Yeah. Do it with friends. Yeah, we’re gonna try and create some sort of cohorts or like, just so people can do it together. Because it’s more fun and really helpful, actually, I think, to do it with people who also know you and can affirm you and push you and see your shadow, you know, and. And like, be like, yes, that is. I know that Persona well. Like, that Persona comes to play, you know, when I show up late to dinner. And yes, being late to dinner is not nice.
Elise Loehnen [00:54:39]:
But then I get like, gruff Georgia, you know, who’s gonna punish me for at least 20 or 30 minutes and.
Ali Shapiro [00:54:49]:
Doing it in groups, because I run most of all my work by groups now. And it’s like the group itself provides the safety for you to take the risk. And you can see yourself and Other people. So it just. People are like, I can’t believe how this group. I’m like, the group is the medicine. Like, we need to know we’re not alone in this, in our shadow, because it is icky. It can be icky stuff.
Ali Shapiro [00:55:09]:
All right, I want to end with Envy, and then we’ll wrap up, because this. I had a client who. She went to the Beyonce concert and loved it. And then she’s like. And then the next day, I was, like, emotionally eating because I’m not Beyonce. And she’s like, I’m not even saying that as, like, a joke. I just. Her level of excellence, her artistry.
Ali Shapiro [00:55:31]:
And we kind of took her through, like, the inquiry framework of truths with food. And it basically came back that, like, she had Envy of not. She didn’t really want to be Beyonce, but she felt like Beyonce was, like, creatively challenging herself, and she was kind of cutting herself at the knees of identifying this need that I need a new creative challenge. She’s wildly creative, has been wildly successful being creative. Right. But, like, in creativity, the point is the constraints and always the synthesis. That, like, all of that is so fun. And I told her about the book.
Ali Shapiro [00:56:00]:
I’m like, you got to listen to my interview with Elise. We talked about envy, but I think this is one that is, like, we’re supposed to be nice and, like, everyone. And, like, in my clients, on the surface, it’s like, oh, I’m comparing myself to other women’s bodies. Right. But it’s like, it’s not really about that. It’s like, where am I in the hierarchy of who has the most success? Or. Or any of that. Any of that kind of stuff? So I want.
Ali Shapiro [00:56:22]:
I opened the chapter, and. Do you mind if I read some of what you wrote?
Elise Loehnen [00:56:25]:
No, please.
Ali Shapiro [00:56:27]:
You open up and you say you interviewed psychotherapist Lori Gottlieb, and she told you that, like, anytime you. How did you say it? Pay attention to envy. Which first, I think, comes across as, like, jealousy or, like, they have that, and I don’t have it. Which is more deeply about envy, because it’s telling you something you want for yourself. Kind of like, my client had a need to really start challenging herself creatively, but it was coming out as emotional eating, and I’m not Beyonce. And we laughed about it because she’s like, I know it sounds funny, but it just really, like, you know, I was on a high and then not. And so I love that you said that. Realizing that envy is a clue of something you want.
Ali Shapiro [00:57:06]:
You said this was a huge revelation for me for two reasons. First, I had an immediate reaction to the word envy. Right. Shadow alert. Ooh, no, not me. I’m not envious of anyone ever. I’ve done enough work on myself at that point to flag that for review. So I love that you said that, because I’m like, yeah, I can hear so many of us being like, I can’t challenge Anything that inspires a big reaction is always a sign that there’s good information there.
Ali Shapiro [00:57:32]:
And I love this one. The second reason made me sad. I didn’t know what I wanted at this point. I was at the height of my corporate career. I had achieved a lot, and publicly, I was married to a lovely man and had two adorable children. I owned my own home. And besides, my mortgage wasn’t in debt. I was, quote, killing it.
Ali Shapiro [00:57:52]:
And yet I felt like I was on autopilot, pushing a path towards a place just beyond the horizon where I would finally feel safe and secure, where I would feel good enough. On some level, I knew that this place was a fantasy. At another level, I knew I would never get there anyway, because I had no clue what I actually wanted and in some ways, wasn’t living my own life fully. If that doesn’t sound like midlife, I don’t know.
Elise Loehnen [00:58:19]:
Right. It’s the metaphor of, like, is your ladder the ladder you’ve been climbing? Is it up against the right wall? Right. Yeah. And I think similarly to the story you just expressed with your client, like, envy, which I write about in honor of best behavior, is the. As the gateway sin. I think it’s the most important one for women to address. And it’s also what, like, every woman wants to talk about with me, because it’s so. I think it’s the source of woman on woman hate in our culture.
Elise Loehnen [00:58:55]:
And it’s largely just because of our own unconscious envy. We don’t know what it is because we deem it bad, and so we repress it and put it in our shadow. Right. And we’re not conscious of the way that it’s driving us. And the way that it shows up is, um, using. Going back to that Lori Golib example, if someone, another woman, has something that you want or is doing something that you want, even if it’s sort of fractionally. Right. Like, Beyonce is expressing herself on the stage, your client doesn’t want to be a pop star, but there’s, like, something there.
Elise Loehnen [00:59:29]:
Typically, what happens is that in that experience, when you have that unconscious envy, you’re like, I don’t know what this is, it feels deeply unsettling and uncomfortable. And so we project it onto the person who’s making us feel bad, and we deprecate them and judge them and shame them. And, like, she’s really, like, Beyonce is, like, too old to be doing that, and she’s just really not that talented, and she’s overrated and whatever it is. You know, to use that as an easy example that comes out to make ourselves feel better, when in reality, like, it has nothing to do with Beyonce. It’s our soul saying, like, pay attention. Beyonce is doing something or has something that you want. Pay attention. This is like a GPS point for you to align yourself to and use this as information to put yourself in motion.
Elise Loehnen [01:00:19]:
But because envy is bad, and we don’t want to acknowledge it because we have no framework, really, for. As women, for being like, I know what I want, and I’m going to go get it. Most of us have no fucking idea what we want. We don’t know. And that’s Courtney and I, my co author. We do this wanting exercise with groups that’s very moving and emotional, and usually it starts with sort of like a tepid expression of a want over here that feels very safe. And then by the end of the process, and we use envy and projection as a way to sort of get closer to what we want. You use complaining and where you hold resentments as another way of getting closer to what you want because someone’s getting away with something that you wouldn’t allow yourself to do, right? But by the end of the process, women have, like, moved 500ft away to something much deeper and more meaningful that’s excruciating for them to hold and just sort of, like, even offer, right? Even, like, your client who’s like, I don’t want to be Beyonce.
Elise Loehnen [01:01:23]:
It’s like the imp. The impulse is to be like, not me. I’m. I know I’m not that special. I know, like, this is embarrassing to want this thing that I’m probably never gonna get. But the reality is that, like, what we want is quite beautiful, and it has, like, a million variations, and what you want will be different than what I want. That’s the other thing that you can feel the anxiety and sort of scarcity in the room as women start doing this work, because I think they’re terrified that they’re going to have the same want as someone else. And we’re so programmed for scarcity that it’s like, well, if you have that, I can’t have that too.
Elise Loehnen [01:01:58]:
So who’s going to get it? Or am I going to destroy you so I can have it? And. But yeah, once people start really getting more deeply in touch, everyone wants something different. And even if they wanted the same thing, great. But it’s, it’s a really powerful exercise that you can do with a friend. You know when you’re walking, you’re going out on a walk with your best friend and she’s like groaning about someone who’s driving her crazy, sort of tormenting a mentor in disguise. It’s like an opportunity to be like, okay, what’s happening? This full of information for you? What is this person getting away with? What do they have that you want? What are they doing that you want to do? Why are they irritating you? And an important caveat. You don’t have to like everyone. This isn’t about like, it’s fine to be like, Lauren Boebert, her behavior is unacceptable, or Laura Loomer or someone like that.
Elise Loehnen [01:02:58]:
I don’t, I don’t look at Laura Loomer and have any feelings, you know, that are signs for me that I have work to do there. Don’t envy her. But I can identify behaviors and actions that I do not. Like, that’s different. That’s not what I’m talking about here. This is sort of that irrational. Like, she bugs me. Who does she think she is? It’s really like, why her, not me? That’s the information that’s really powerful and because the reality is like, if we lived in a world without scarcity for women, and there is scarcity for women and some of it is self created by us, but someone else’s success would just be sort of like a shining example of what’s also possible for you instead of it feeling threatening.
Elise Loehnen [01:03:45]:
But for many of us it feels really threatening. And I get it. We have all sorts of reasons to believe that story. You know, there’s usually like maybe one woman or two, but if we can like be present with it and really work with it and, and like be like, why this doesn’t have to be true. And doing, supporting other women won’t actually detract from my own ability to feed my family, I think we’ll make some big, bigger steps towards the equity we want to see.
Ali Shapiro [01:04:17]:
And that’s what I appreciate about your work so much because I find that people either over index on, well, collectively this is what’s happening and we’re powerless, or you’re ignorant for thinking there’s scarcity, there’s abundant. Right? It’s like the Binary. It’s like, well, there’s both. And you give us again, that. Again. I call it option C. But it’s like the agency down the middle path and it’s. It reminds me of that.
Ali Shapiro [01:04:41]:
Like it’s been attributed to Erin Brockovich and I think Gloria Steinem too. But it’s like the truth will set you free, but first it’s going to piss you off.
Elise Loehnen [01:04:48]:
Yes. Such a great quote.
Ali Shapiro [01:04:50]:
Yeah, yeah. And I just. I mean, this may seem like a tangent, but I think about the. The bonobos, right. The. The animals there. And the bonobos are like a matriarch. And not that we need a matrix.
Ali Shapiro [01:05:01]:
I think we need integrated. But it’s like that culture is so healthy because the women come to the female apes or whatever. The female bonobos come together and they’re like, we’re not going to tolerate this. And I think I just. As all of this maha. Political stuff, I’m just like, if we centered mothers. Right. Like, if we centered.
Ali Shapiro [01:05:20]:
Like. But we all have to come together. And I think that this envy when you start with this and realizing that we’re not in competition with each other or that there can be enough for everyone if we come together. To me, this feels very political. And that’s also why like. Like political as in redefining power, not parties.
Elise Loehnen [01:05:39]:
Yeah. And there’s a whole, like, big part of the process is working on, working within the drama triangle, which is like when we’re below the line and we go below the line out of fear, and we’re like looking for the villain and we’re looking for the victim and we’re looking for the hero, and we’re probably the hero, but we’re seeing sort of like addressing the world from that point of view, and it’s disempowering and. And yeah. So it’s like when I first wrote on our Best Behavior, I was like, I could sit here and sort of like pound my fists at Mitch McConnell and scream @ my husband, or I could take some responsibility for what I’m actually creating in my own life and how I’m also feeding and participating, participating in this culture and my own internalized patriarchy. And yeah, it’s not as maybe fun or satisfying. We can do both. You know, we can be hard on structures, for sure. I think our tendency.
Elise Loehnen [01:06:32]:
There’s an amazing quote from John. I think his middle. It’s John S. Powell or John A. Powell, the Institution for Othering, where he’s like, we need to learn how to be hard on systems and soft on People. And we’re really hard on people and soft on systems. So, yes, like, we need to go ham on systems and soft on people. And I think we need to be incredibly present and conscious with ourselves.
Elise Loehnen [01:07:01]:
And how am I feeding this? How am I promoting this? What am I modeling? What am I ensuring is true for me and for other people in both good ways and bad? And it’s just more interesting way to live, you know, and it’s to me, feels more powerful than just being. Feeling like there’s nothing I can do and this is how it is and so on and so forth. I have enough days like that, Allie.
Ali Shapiro [01:07:32]:
I know, but. But I think that is what’s so wonderful about wholeness, is when. And this is the, you know, hopefully everyone will go out and get the workbook. And like, when you have wholeness, you have more flexibility, you. You have more compassion for yourself, which spills out to other people. And like, I think we’re in such a big time of transition. Like, anyone who thinks they have the answer, I think is still below the line, wanting control and certainty. Right.
Ali Shapiro [01:07:56]:
It’s like nobody knows. And we need everyone coming together to collaborate and have that. And if we’re all so reactive or we’re also canceling everyone over every imperfection, it’s just like, that’s not how this is. This is not going to end well. I mean, that’s. That’s the goal of autocrats, right?
Elise Loehnen [01:08:15]:
It’s not going well. Yeah. I think we’ve, like, proven out, like, our tactics have not been particularly effective or productive and that, like, there is a third way. Like, we’ve got to figure this out. And, and it. It does involved you. You know, the Ken Wilber phrase, transcendent include, like, you have to. We have to find a way.
Elise Loehnen [01:08:35]:
We all live here. We can’t eradicate each other. That does not work. And so how do enough of us wake up and get above this or get like, climb up to a higher vantage point, find new solutions, figure out how to talk to each other. It’s like, all is not lost unless we decide it is. And I refuse to do that.
Ali Shapiro [01:08:59]:
And that’s just for everyone listening too. And Elise, I’d love your thoughts and then we can close out. But I think that’s part of, like, the world’s on fire. And so I can’t do this kind of stuff. And I’m like, no, it’s holding the. And it’s not either or the world’s on fire. Which is why this kind of introspection is Even more important so that you can be someone who can hold all of that. And, you know, we can’t all be reacting all at the same time.
Elise Loehnen [01:09:23]:
Well, and it’s like, what. What you’re describing is sort of the macro nature of what it is to be a woman and a mother, which, like, I can’t be okay or take care of myself until everyone else, everywhere, is okay. And so somehow everyone not being okay negates my own needs. And we have to flip that, because fear, anxiety, just like the negativity in general that we’re bathing in the grief, et cetera. Like, it needs to be processed. It needs to be embodied. It needs to be held. And.
Elise Loehnen [01:10:02]:
And so the more that we can all sort of bring ourselves fully online and sort of be. Be present with that and be okay despite that and be and not transmit. Like, I don’t want to say that we’re sponges or washing machines. Men need to do this work, too. But, like, part of it is like, how do I not continue? How do I not power these emotions that are, like, rampaging through the collective? How do I, like, do my part to deal with my own stuff, to bring the temperature down so that when I go to lunch with a friend who is losing it, I am not feeding her anxiety and infecting everyone around us in the restaurant, but that I can sort of stay present and stay calm. So, like, we gotta do, like, this is the first priority is managing ourselves. And the more of us who can do that, the more capacity, the more energy we have for everything that needs to be done in the outside world. And I mentioned, you know, Carl Jung, when he talks about shadow, he’s like, the gold is in the shadow.
Elise Loehnen [01:11:09]:
Like, that’s where all the energy is. And it’s the energy of that integration, and it’s also the energy that we reclaim when we stop pushing it all down, right? But when you can just say, all right, I am full of grief. I am just gonna give myself some time to be present with this grief and to feel it. It can might only take 30 seconds, Allie, you know, before you discharge it. You know, you move it, you send it into the earth. But it can take a big, much bigger toll when you’re like, I’m just gonna put this in my Hefty bag and carry it throughout my day.
Ali Shapiro [01:11:49]:
So where can everybody start unpacking their trash bag and find choosing wholeness over goodness?
Elise Loehnen [01:11:54]:
Choosing wholeness over goodness. And on the same date, the paperback of Honor Best Behavior comes out. I’m a paperback reader, so if you’ve been holding out for the paperback, it’s finally here. You don’t need to read the book to do the workbook. And I, I sort of cliff notes the chapters, but if you like all the story and the data and the, the wider context, get the book too. And yeah, my podcast is pulling the thread and that’s the name of my substack. Eliseloon substack.com and I’m on Instagram, but I hate Instagram. But I am on Instagram.
Ali Shapiro [01:12:28]:
Yeah, I. Yours is one of the few sub stacks I read every week because you do provide this. I just listened to your pod in prepping for this interview with Holly on co regulation and just kind of like you’re someone who, like, can ground people but hold everything that’s happening because I just don’t see a lot of that out there.
Elise Loehnen [01:12:45]:
Thank you. I appreciate it.
Ali Shapiro [01:12:47]:
And then we’ll put a link to the. The book in the show notes.
Elise Loehnen [01:12:51]:
Amazing.
Ali Shapiro [01:12:52]:
So everyone go get it. Get the book. Get both of it. Thank you so much, Lise, for coming on.
Elise Loehnen [01:12:58]:
Thank you.
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