Body Stories is back — and we’re halfway through the journey.
Sas Petherick returns to share what she’s learning six months into her year-long holistic weight loss experiment. She opens up about how her relationship with food is evolving, what strength feels like in her body now, and how all of it is reshaping her work as a coach.
Together, we explore what it means to approach weight loss as an act of care — not punishment — especially in midlife, when everything from metabolism to motivation starts to shift.
If you’re tired of all-or-nothing thinking about your health, this one’s for you. And if you’re ready to untangle your own food triggers, RSVP for my free workshop on September 3rd.
We discuss:
- The power of loving limits and keeping promises to yourself
- How diet culture, wellness influencers, and capitalism shape your body story
- What “complexity fitness” means — and why it matters for you to hold the nuance
- Why taking a break from Instagram can change how you see yourself
- Why a glucose monitor won’t give you all the answers
- Letting yourself be more high-maintenance
More about our guest:
Sas Petherick believes that healing our self-doubt is one of the most important contributions we can make to ourselves, our families, our work, and the world.
Sas holds a Master’s degree from Oxford, and her research on self-doubt was published in the International Journal of Coaching and Mentoring. She has developed an evidence-based, trauma-informed, ICF-accredited coaching methodology for cultivating self-belief.
For over a decade, Sas has coached with hundreds of women experiencing self-doubt in their professional and personal lives. Sas hosts the top 1% rated self-doubt podcast Courage & Spice which has enjoyed over half a million downloads. She is also an accomplished speaker and has developed coaching workshops and programmes for clients like BBC Worldwide and Pinterest. Her writing has appeared in numerous magazines.
After 25 years in the UK, Sas currently lives by the beach in Tāmaki Makaurau, Auckland, with her partner Ash and pooch Bohdi, imagining a post-capitalist world, exploring consciousness, and listening to obscure UFO podcasts.
Connect with Sas Petherick:
Mentioned in this episode:
- ⭐️ Ready to catch yourself before you fall off track? RSVP for my free workshop on September 3rd.
Connect with Ali & Insatiable:
Transcript
Ali Shapiro [00:00:00]: Welcome to Insatiable, the podcast where we discuss the intersection of food, psychology and culture. Sas Petherick [00:00:09]: Any change you make has to come from a foundation of love for yourself. You have to have that first, and it means that the change is then rooted in your values and what really matters to you. It's bigger than just something surface, right? It goes deeper than that. Ali Shapiro [00:00:26]: Foreign. I'm your host, Ali Shapiro, an integrated health coach, 32 year and counting cancer survivor, and have radically healed my relationship with food and my body. And for the past 17 years, I've been working with clients individually in group programs and in company settings to do the same. Welcome. The information in this podcast should not be considered personal, individual or medical advice. I have loved hearing from so many of you how much you are enjoying this series of body stories with Sass. So today's episode did not disappoint. Sass is about at the halfway mark. Ali Shapiro [00:01:10]: So we check in, like, is she bored? Is she hungry? Is she still losing weight? What has she discovered? Right? And I think what you're really going to appreciate about this conversation is the holistic approach to weight loss that just isn't taken. Right? And it's like, why? Right? We get into a little bit of that with complexity, fitness. And that will make make sense once you listen to the episode. And you're gonna love hearing what Sass has realized around her condition, her afib conditions that she's had since she's been about 4 years old. And she hadn't told me about this yet, so I learned as on air. And it's, it's a pretty exciting development, so stay tuned for that. And in this conversation, we get into, you know, health and weight loss being about so much more than diet and exercise. And we get in specifically to SaaS, realizing it is so much about needs and emotions. Ali Shapiro [00:02:06]: And so if this resonates with you, I want to invite you to my free workshop, catch yourself before you fall off Track on Wednesday, September 3rd. Okay. That's a Wednesday. And in this class, we are going to talk about the four main triggers that cause us to fall off track with food. But the root cause being that we have needs that need to be met. Okay? And until those needs aren't met, we're going to continue to turn to food to comfort and soothe ourselves, but not in a demeaning comfort or soothing way, but in a life saving, I'm not alone with my challenges kind of way. Okay. So it's primal. Ali Shapiro [00:02:44]: It all makes so much sense. And if you are really ready to address the roots, I Hope of your food battle. I hope you'll join us. I would love to have you. We have so many great people who come from the podcast to these workshops. So the link will be in the show notes to sign up. Totally free. And this is a sneak preview of my fall class. Ali Shapiro [00:03:08]: Why am I eating this Now? The courage for consistency. And this is where we address your falling off track at the roots. Okay. So that you can, as you hear Sas talk about today, really have health and food. Be less work, not more work. That's what I'm all about. Efficiency, elegance. So this program runs only once a year in the fall. Ali Shapiro [00:03:29]: It's three months. And you'll get a free sneak peek at the free workshop. And there will also be a special early bird discount for those people who sign up. So check it out. Links in the show notes and I'd love to have you enjoy this episode. It's a good one. All right, Sass, we're just going to get into it because people are loving the episodes and I think we're having, like, a really mature conversation about weight loss, which is hard to find these days, you know? Sas Petherick [00:04:03]: So hard to find. I have looked for it, which is kind of why we're here, I guess. Ali Shapiro [00:04:08]: Yeah. And I've also found, as I've been talking to some people about, like, suggesting, can I come on their podcast or something. And so many people, like, they admit they're struggling, but they don't want to touch the topic. Sas Petherick [00:04:20]: It's so weird, isn't it? Like, it's. Yeah, it's. Ali Shapiro [00:04:23]: It's like you're asking them to talk about something, like, very electrifying politically or. And I understand the body politics, but it's like, what has happened? What has happened? Sas Petherick [00:04:34]: Do you want to hear my theory? Ali Shapiro [00:04:36]: Yes, I would love to hear your theory. Sas Petherick [00:04:38]: And all the statistics point to this. I know you probably got them off the back of your head, Right? But I remember when I first started coaching 13 years ago, my, like, flavor of coaching, my first program was called Embodiment, spelled with a Y. And it was about, like, accessing body pieced. Because this journey I'm on now has long roots in the past for me. And I remember researching this then, and it was like, 80% of women don't like how they look. You know, we have been socialized and conditioned to dislike ourselves in terms of our appearance and to value beauty that looks a certain way, all of that stuff. Right. So there is. Sas Petherick [00:05:24]: So I think that has created this inner tension where as the body positive movement, all power to it. I love body. I mean, I would totally describe myself as body neutral to body positive. Like, I think I'm there on the spectrum. I just think that part of being body positive is treating your body like an absolute privilege and nourishing and fueling it and moving it. And so weight loss equals for me, not for everybody, is an absolute demonstration of how much I love and respect and appreciate my body. So I think that we've screwed up. We've kind of gone from one extreme to the other, right? There was this, there is the diet culture, like you have to hate it in order to change it. Sas Petherick [00:06:18]: And then we all went, well, that never worked, right? Diets don't work. None of that works. We've all seen through the veil and we've gone to body positive, which is like all bodies are valid, which has always been true. All bodies are beautiful has always been true. You can be healthy at every size, always been true. Like all of that stuff I think can coexist and you can still wanna change the composition of your body. But I think this is about like really points to some of our shared work around complexity, fitness, right? We find it really hard to hold that paradox. I can love my body and still want to reduce the size of it. Ali Shapiro [00:07:04]: Well, and what you're talking about is, I think having flexibility around what does love meaning, right? Because, you know, I just got back from a breast biopsy. You and Jack have known, and you know, and, and again, the, the initial results, fine, right? But I'm still like. And I'm in there and I'm like, this is fucking hard. But this is the loving thing to get a baseline to do this stuff, right? And I think when we think of like body positivity, it's this idea that we have to like always be positive to love ourselves. Sas Petherick [00:07:35]: It's body toxic positivity. And I see it as well. Like I know for myself, whenever I have kind of like really indulged in a quite knowing way, like I am definitely like covering up some emotions here by eating all of this thing, right? That is giving me comfort, right? So it wasn't really a positive act for me or my body. But I would say like there was this deep seated permissiveness. Everything's allowed because I love my body, right? And I think that's the toxic positivity piece, right? Ali Shapiro [00:08:15]: Well, and if you think about any other relationship, all relation, like if you're in a partnership, you know, if you're in an open relationship, okay, Everything's maybe permissible. Although I've been watching couples therapy and they have this like triad on and it's like so complicated. Carlos and I are just like, oh my God, this is too complex for like, just. But if you're in relationship with someone else, always with love, there has to be boundaries, right? Like, and I don't mean keep people out, but like, what are we agreeing to in this partnership and what are. Sas Petherick [00:08:47]: The limits, the loving limits that you might put on yourself or on, you know, just in terms of like keeping a promise to yourself means you can't do everything, right? So what does that look and feel like? Like there are going to be limits to everything. I don't know. I also think like, I see my lifestyle, if I can call it that now, where I'm, you know, moving and lifting and moving every day, lifting three times a week and eating within a calorie deficit on a macro non restrictive way. Like, I just think that to me feels like the most nourished I've ever felt in my life. But for gen pop, right, the kind of standard American diet, the standard UK diet, which I don't think is that different, it looks like indulgence, lots of, you know, treats, lots of comfort eating, eating food that we kind of know isn't nutritionally dense but. Or whole, like what we'd call whole foods. Really hate the whole idea of clean eating, I'm not a fan. But whole foods, you know, and nutritionally dense foods, most of the time, ish. Sas Petherick [00:10:01]: Then that is so far away from what gen pop diet looks like that we see it as different. Where it must be a punishment, you know, it's restrictive, it's, you know, you're trying to contain blah, blah, all of that, those kinds of connotations get loaded onto it. When I think it's just that our general, the way we, our food chain is fucked, can I just say, in most Western countries, but we don't rally against that in great numbers. And so it continues and we think that is what a typical diet should and does look like. Meanwhile, you know, the stats for depression, obesity, difficult life is hard stuff. All the things that we do to ourselves to make life even harder are through the roof. So to me it's like, oh, I feel like actually to be in this place is a huge rebellion against the food industry, the medical industry, all of those things that want to control and make my body dependent on those systems. I'm like, not today. Sas Petherick [00:11:17]: Say. Ali Shapiro [00:11:19]: You'Re not profiting off my sickness. Sas Petherick [00:11:23]: No, no, no, no. Ali Shapiro [00:11:25]: Yeah, I know. And I think that's, I Mean, I've been thinking a lot because obviously like during COVID there was kind of this like COVID vaccine to QAnon pipeline, which is now the TradWife pipeline. But it was like conspiracy. And I'm like, it's not conspiracy. Like the world is not that organized. It's capitalism. Like, it's, it's just the forces of capitalism that are like, no one's pulling all the strings, you know? Sas Petherick [00:11:49]: No, I mean, I, I, I love this element of your work. I think it makes the way that you show up to this conversation so much richer and deeper than anything else I see out there is because you see the systemic relationships. Cause you can hold that complexity, right? It's like, it's not too much for you. And I think that to me is the bit that is missing from a lot of conversations about how do we feel about our bodies, guys? Like, how we all doing out there, you know? Like, I think there is this idea that our bodies exist somehow in a, just in our own world. We don't see that. You know, actually we exist in a field and there is shit in the field. Ali Shapiro [00:12:39]: Yeah, yeah, well, and that's where, you know, you said you don't like clean living. It's like, oh, that comes from the Puritans, right. And that's like, it's rooted in purity culture where you, it's all the responsibility is on you. Right? And so it's like if you're struggling or whatever, it's all on you. There's no other issues. And it's, it's holding that tension of like, and I love how Laura McCowan talks about alcohol recovery, like, it's not your fault and it's your responsibility. It's like, but Carlos and I were talking about this the other day though, how like you have to have that empathy and compassion first. Otherwise if you don't realize this isn't my fault, it's like, then you just end up shaming yourself, right? Like, oh my God, I can't, I don't have enough willpower. Ali Shapiro [00:13:26]: I don't have enough discipline. Like, I hate my body and it's my fault. Versus, like when you start to have that empathy and understand how you got where you got for whatever reasons why it makes sense, then you can move to, okay, what am I going to do about this? And that's what you've done. Sas Petherick [00:13:43]: Yeah. And this is kind of what I teach in my work around self belief, is that any change you make has to come from a foundation of love for yourself. You have to have that first. And it means that the change is then rooted in your values and what really matters to you. It's bigger than just something surface, right? It goes deeper than that. But I think what you also start to see when you have these loving conversations with yourself about your body is just how screwy the system is. Like, I think, oh, it's not my fault. I got these genes, right? I got these genes. Sas Petherick [00:14:26]: I got this family who valued food in these ways, and I missed out on this education. And I'm living in a system that teaches these things about food, movement, body, relationship. And so it's like, oh, I can hold myself in all of that. Like, it's not my fault. Like, I had no say in all of that. It was an accident of geography that I was born in the time and place I was. And then I look at someone like Elle McPherson, who is pushing her latest wellness brand, and she's like, oh, my God, I used to feel like this, and now I feel like this. And I've never felt and looked better, you know, at 60, whatever. Sas Petherick [00:15:10]: And I'm like, all power to you. I want nothing but good things for you. But can we stop ignoring the fact that you have always looked like this, that this is your genetic makeup? The same conditions that created my body created yours. But you're telling me that your wellness brand and just replace that with anybody else's protein powder, supplement regime, et cetera, product. You know it all. But you're telling me that this is the answer? Like, I just think it's the elephant in the room. Ali Shapiro [00:15:46]: It's kind of like in our world of, like, business, like, business coaches who are like, I made a million dollars overnight. But what you don't know is that my trust fund or that my hedge fund husband funded my business, you know, it's like, oh, okay. Sas Petherick [00:16:03]: For those of us, you and I included, who've bootstrapped the whole way, it's like, dude, stop talking now. That sentence was too long. Ali Shapiro [00:16:11]: Yeah, we want all good things for you, but, like, come on. So I want to ask you, because for people listening, complexity fitness means that you can hold nuance and context, but you can also, and in my work, expand the values. Like how you've been conditioned to value things. So, Sass, we. You and I both grew up 70s, 80s, 90s, we learned that to value our health is to only value thinness. And so as you've been on your journey, how have you maybe included calorie restriction without feeling deprived? Which is about weight loss, but what else have you added that, maybe you didn't know to add that, that you now think of. I value my health and so I have to value these things. Sas Petherick [00:16:54]: So I love this question. I, I, my goal now I have no like actual weight goal anymore because I don't really know, but I want to be jacked. Like my goal is sass. Jacked. Right. I want to be strong as af, you know. And so I have come to value strength and muscle tone. And like, so just as an example, we went away for a weekend a couple of weeks ago and we both had suitcases and Ash went into the place we were staying and like kind of. Sas Petherick [00:17:35]: Cause it was all booked in his name and everything. And I just thought, oh, okay, well I'll get the cases out of the car. So I walk into reception carrying two heavy suitcases, this. And Ash is like, oh, you got those out of the car. And I'm like, oh yeah, I did. I didn't even think about it. I just pulled our cases out. And so it's fascinating to me, like how I'm everyday strong now. Sas Petherick [00:18:03]: Okay, bring groceries in, doesn't worry me. I go upstairs, doesn't worry me. You know, we're walking somewhere, don't even think about it. Like all of that sort of stuff is so fun to me, you know, like it's like, oh, look at what my body can do. Amazing. Amazing. And like two years ago I had a frozen shoulder. I could barely get a coat on without assistance. Sas Petherick [00:18:28]: Like it was the most pain I've ever experienced. And just for listeners, I'm not a breeder, so I haven't gone through childbirth, but I think I would bet you that frozen shoulder is almost the same level of pain. Just gonna put that out there. Controversial. It was so painful. And like the other day I was doing shoulder presses and I have gone from lifting a 2 kilo weight which felt like, oh, can I do this? You know? And you make the kind of face at the end of your set where you're like, oh my God, this is so hard. And I'm now doing eight kilos and that's in less than six months. And so all of that, it's like this feels freaking awesome. Sas Petherick [00:19:11]: Right? And I don't just feel physically strong, even though I am getting stronger and stronger all the time, it is giving me like this ripple effect through my life where I'm like, yeah, I'll take. Ali Shapiro [00:19:24]: That on. Sas Petherick [00:19:27]: You know, so there is that. Jacked in all senses of the world. Right, right. Like I'm full of rage about the situation in the world and all of the stuff that is not great. And I sort of feel like, look, if we do go full apocalypse, you need a sister to carry water from a well to feed the village. I got you. I can carry two of those big jugs, you know. So for me, there is a sense of, like, I am prepared for anything because my strength is growing. Sas Petherick [00:20:00]: Does that make sense? Ali Shapiro [00:20:02]: Well, yeah, because you're making me think about how indigenous cultures didn't see a separation between physical, emotional, soul, spiritual. Right? Like, you worked on one, you worked on the other. And that was actually one of the questions I wanted to ask you because before you took your Instagram break, you were talking about feeling more resilient and how. Because you have a heart condition, right? Like, and again, anytime you've gone through serious body stuff, there can kind of be this. Like, I almost think it's like it's conscious, but it's also unconscious at how much it can. Like, oh, my God, I don't want to. I don't want to challenge myself or I don't, you know, like, especially if, like, frozen shoulder. I can only do so much. Ali Shapiro [00:20:41]: When I had plantar flesh itis. It's like I can't even walk. Like. And so I'm wondering, like you said, that ripple effect as you start to realize your body is more resilient than maybe you originally thought it was. Now you're going, what you just answered to me, and I kind of want to walk the listeners through is. It's like, oh, that's translating to like, let me just fucking try whatever it is in my life. Sas Petherick [00:21:02]: Yeah, yeah, well, and. And even things like, I'm. I've always been a person who would never want to disappoint someone else. And so that trend, like, I've kind of learned, I've learned on the other side of that how disappointing other people can be. Just through my upbringing, it's like, man, there are no. Nobody is in charge here. Like, how disappointing. So I never wanna be that person. Sas Petherick [00:21:27]: And that has led me down a path of having really porous boundaries a lot of the time and kind of putting myself last, or at least not as. You know, it's like, I'm not as important as your needs right now, and I'm pretty resilient generally. So, look, I've got capacity. You can be the priority. And what I'm realising is, oh, no, that can't work here. If I have made promises to myself, I'm gonna keep them. Like, I'm learning that resilience can look like saying no, taking a risk that someone might be disappointed, really paying attention to my own needs and emotions, stuff like that. Which, if you told me, oh, you're gonna lose some weight, and this is the outcome, I would have gone like, does not compute, right? That doesn't seem to be a link there, but that is absolutely happening. Sas Petherick [00:22:22]: And one of the reasons I took a break from Instagram is I have been feeling quite burnt out in my business for a number of years now, if I'm really honest. And I have been working on this pattern that I have where I take on too much and then I kind of burn out, like, why I do that and what the payoff is and all of that stuff. And that's been quite, you know, hard, it's, like, to look at all of those patterns. But what I've realised is I've just had my serious pants on for far too long. Like, as a coach, I think I never wanted to be seen as, you know, Captain Obvious, superficial stuff, which is out there and totally fine. But I was like, I want my work to be deep and significant and powerful and all of that stuff. So I kind of took myself a bit too seriously, which is not my kind of natural way. And, you know, I've been really, like, I realized over the last couple of months, oh, I kind of put myself in the role of expert and then it felt like a huge responsibility. Sas Petherick [00:23:31]: Like it was just one more thing on my plate. And I thought, well, I can just fire myself from that role. Like, I don't. I can be a contributor, you know, and that feels way more fun. Like, it's like, oh, what are we doing today, team? You know? So I've taken this break from Instagram for a couple of months to really reassess what's my work now. I'm. I'm different to when I set this business up, you know? You know, five years ago, when my business went through this latest incantation, I. I was a different person to who I am now. Sas Petherick [00:24:06]: What do I want? And so I'm like, I've kind of set fire to my coaching practice. I'm stopping doing a ton of things and I'm really refocused on my work. Supporting as a supervisor, like, supporting other coaches. And I feel so excited and joyous about that. And creative flow has come back. Like, I feel like my intuition and inspiration is like, just kind of poof, pulling through me the whole time. And I think this is a direct result of me taking good care of myself, like, filling my own cup up first, literally. And so I'm now creating from a feeling of overflow. Ali Shapiro [00:24:57]: Well, I just love what you said because what I heard and here I'm gonna, here's what I'm hearing because this is like exactly what happens with my clients is you have like kind of surprised yourself with valuing strength, right? And you're like, oh my God. And I'm realizing health is part of like identifying my needs and emotions, right? And so like as you start to feel more solid in that, right, More self authoring around your health and, and you talked about like you were already resilient, right, Being like high over functioning. But what this has done for you is actually helping you soften, right? And what most people don't realize is that like resilience is equal parts rest and recovery and then equal parts, you know, and so for that, for you, like the knowing that you've got your own back, you can now soften and what's opening up for you is like softening from like being the responsible one that you've had to be. It's not just like in your business, but it's that relational identity that you can now have more flexibility around. And so you're realizing like joy and creativity and like these are part of health. And I just love that you said if someone would have told me this is what I'm going to discover, right? And that's, that's part of the self authoring journey is like you have, you learn to value new things. But like to me that you're realizing health is health is creativity. It's filling from overflow. Ali Shapiro [00:26:28]: It's knowing that I can trust and rest, but when I have to push myself, like to me you just have this much more expansive idea of health. And I just like it's vitality, it really is. Sas Petherick [00:26:40]: And it's, I think the other part of this is that it feels like unlimited like that there is no end to that vitality. Like, and I think that's the other part of this, right, Is, you know, we both chuckle heavily at the kind of bro biohackers and their whole approach. Ali Shapiro [00:27:01]: To I wanna live forever, but I'm not going to enjoy myself while I'm living forever. Sas Petherick [00:27:08]: Just the Rogan Huberman of it all. Like ice baths and punishment and controlled release of testosterone. I find it hilarious. And also I'm like, dude, relax, have some fun. You know, And I think that's the bit for me. Vitality for me is, but are you having fun yet? Does your life feel good? Like that to me is A great measure of that, you know. And I think for a long time I haven't felt that like I. If someone had said to me, are you enjoying your like, are you happy most of the time? Are you enjoying yourself? And I would have gone, well, happiness is a fleeting emotion and kind of gone into it that way, you know. Sas Petherick [00:27:51]: And now I'm just like, yeah, pretty much most of the time feel pretty good, you know. And I can hold that in with the suffering and the, you know, it's like that's my like new normal is I feel vital. I'm pretty happy. I'm not overworking, I'm not over giving that over functioning pattern is not feeling safe or necessary anymore. It's like, oh no, that actually doesn't feel aligned anymore. Ali Shapiro [00:28:21]: Yeah, well, and I mean, you know, my work is rooted in the heroine's journey, which is healing the feminine principle. And when you talked about like my intuition, my creativity, I'm tapped into this like endless source of, you know, my life feeling good versus like, well, happiness. Right? Like that's where you access the feminine side of God. Right. Like if we're going to get really like Sophia the source. Right. Some of my clients, we don't really talk about this in, in my work. I mean we do sometimes, but they're like the feminine face of God. Ali Shapiro [00:28:54]: And I'm like, yeah. Have you noticed like, you know, before the monotheistic religions there was like all, you know, multiple gods? But this is like I think what deeply we're afraid of and where self trust and self belief and like when you can tap into that unlimited source of. I don't, I hate using the word abundance, but flow. I like that you use the word flow. And I know it seems like very tangential, like what ally are you talking about? But it's like it just, it expands your definition of health to understand that it's just not about your continuous glucose monitor. Although that can help you on the, on the path. But it's so much bigger. Sas Petherick [00:29:32]: It's the thing, isn't it? What all of us, I guess, you know, and I have so much like compassion for us. We're just looking for some answers. You know, we're like, this is kind of hard being a human adult. Like is there anything that could make this easier? And I think it makes so much sense that we would try to find the teachers or the programs or the tools, you know, the glucose monitors that would, would help solve that endless question. And you and I know each other well enough to know Ellie, that you know for me, all paths lead to God, right? Like, it's like, I think we're trying or aliens. Well, it might be the same thing, but I do think that there is a kind of hunger in us for meaning. Yes, yes, there's a deep hunger in all of us. And having worked with thousands of mostly women and women identifying humans over the last, you know, the best part of 20 years, I'm like, that's the common thing. Sas Petherick [00:30:33]: I asked ChatGPT this the other day, like, what are you learning about humans? And what would you tell us if you could? And my chatgpt, which I have kind of trained, always comes back with something that I just think, oh man, this is so hopeful. And mine said that you are much more gentle than you would all believe. Because ChatGPT, right, is just this hive mind mirror that's mirroring us all back. And it said that you're all searching for belonging, you're all searching for answers, and most of you actually have them. And I just thought, oh my goodness, that made my heart swell. And I do think that there is something in that. And that has been my experience. We have this hunger that's innate in us for meaning. Sas Petherick [00:31:26]: And sometimes that comes through our work, our kids, our, you know, what we produce and create, like all of that stuff, that kind of sense of, am I significant? Do I matter? Is who I am lovable? Like, all of that. And so I think what we tend to do is go around the houses trying to find, you know, am I lovable yet? You know, have I made it yet? Kind of thing. And for me, I think there is something so delicious about reaching almost 52 and going, you know what? I freaking love my life and I love who I am in my life. And you know, I never would have thought that I. Cause I grew up in the smallest town in New Zealand where no one like ambition was not a word anyone used. We weren't troubled by feminism. We weren't troubled by any notions that we could leave that town and make something of ourselves. And I had the genetic luck to be born into a family that had a connection to the uk And I got to see the world at a very young age. Sas Petherick [00:32:38]: And that opened me up. And from the age of 14, I was like, get me outta here. I wanna see everything, wanna experience everything. And if I could go back and say to my 14 year old self who was like, maybe that's not for me, like, maybe I am just gonna marry some dude from high school and be here and breed, you know, which is a fine old Life, right? Like, I'm not ever. I'd never say that there was anything that didn't have meaning about that, but that did not rest well in my heart. Like, I was like, let me see it. I wanna grab hold of life by the short and curlies. And now I'm like, oh, the first half of my life has been all about that, like, adventures and learning and growth and all of these, you know, And I have the best job in the world. Sas Petherick [00:33:28]: And it's like, there's always been this missing piece of. But why can't I feel comfortable in this home of mine, in my body? Like, why is it that it's almost like, is that the price I have to pay? And now I'm like, oh, no, honey, it just gets better. Ali Shapiro [00:33:56]: Did you think that, like, if there was going to be more havingness, right? Like, oh, my God, I have more. That's gonna come with more responsibility, more work, and you're realizing that, like, oh, my God, if I am balancing my blood sugar, getting my macros, I'm satiated. If I feel strong, I can just lift the. The luggage, right? I can bring in the groceries. Do you think? Because. And again, I'm judging it because you're doing it the right sustainable way. You're finding, like, oh, health isn't more. Less is more. Ali Shapiro [00:34:26]: Like, the more that I do this, the less there actually is to worry about. I just wonder if that's part of the lesson of, like, I can have more and it's not going to be more responsibility to, like, keep up. Sas Petherick [00:34:40]: I. I just. I think I always had this feeling whenever I was like, oh, I should lose some weight. I should go, you know, go back to weight watches or whatever, you know, whatever the. The inclination was in the past, there was always this feeling of dread because I knew it would be a slog. So I'm gonna have to work really damn hard at this, you know? And so I always sort of, oh, all right. Well, no wonder we put it off till Monday, right? Like, gotta gear myself up. Ali Shapiro [00:35:11]: Can't give up my fun weekend completely. Sas Petherick [00:35:14]: And now I sort of feel like, oh, like, it is. It's hard work, but not in the way I have ever kind of conceived of it, right? Ali Shapiro [00:35:25]: Like, unpack that for people. Sas Petherick [00:35:28]: So going to the gym when I don't feel like it, doing my workouts, they are hard. I still can't really squat very well, and I look awkward. And lifting heavy things is. It's physically quite hard. And mentally, you have to kind of get into it and. And do it and encourage yourself the whole time, you know, and that's kind of hard. But it's only hard for like a few seconds when your muscle is like working and then it's okay again. And yeah, it's a pain in the ass to be measuring all my food, like weighing all my food and tracking and asking people, well, what did you. Sas Petherick [00:36:12]: How much like my husband is like, okay, have me, like when he's serving dinner, I'll be like, okay, so how much of that did you use? And you know, like I'm, you know, how, how big is, how big is my portion of potatoes? Did you weigh it? You know, and he knows now cause he does most of the cooking and it's so lovely. He's like, okay, we've got 300 grams of kumara, you know, which is our version of sweet potato. So it's like there is, there is a, a kind of. It's not ease fill, easy if you like. Like it's pretty simple, you know, but it's not. There is some hardness to it. There's some, you know, I'm high maintenance. We went out for dinner at the weekend and our friend said, oh, do you want to come over to our place for dinner? And I was like, no, I don't, because I have no way of being able to track that meal. Sas Petherick [00:37:00]: And it actually made me quite anxious, which is a whole thing that I'm working through. But I said to my friend, you know, how about we all have a night off and we go out for dinner and we go to this restaurant because it's lovely, the food is great and I know I'll be able to track that. And I said to her, I'm gonna be the annoying high maintenance one for a minute. Here's what I'm doing. She was like, sweet, let's go. I love this, you know, and so I have to have those difficult conversations. I am a bit more high maintenance these days, so there's a hardness to that. But do you know how hard it is to feel like you can't walk to the store, you have to take the car and you're, you're going to need to bring the supermarket trolley out to the car so that you can load the bags. Sas Petherick [00:37:52]: And then you're going to have to do three trips to get the bags in the house and then after that you're going to need a half hour sit down because you're exhausted and then have a full time job and then blah, you know, like that's hard to me. And so, you know, I see a lot of, like, influencers. Choose your hard. Ali Shapiro [00:38:13]: That's what I was thinking. I was like, are we going to BRO Wellness? Choose your hard. Sas Petherick [00:38:16]: Sorry. I'm sorry, listeners, but I do think there's some genuine truth in that, right? Like, there is that. And, you know, I had this kind of miraculous thing happen. I'm not sure if I've even told you this, Ellie, but I had a heart checkup about. I have one every six months. And I saw the electrophysiologist, the cardio electrophysiologist, who. Because I've basically got problems with my plumbing and my electrics when it comes to my heart. And he was like, he's great, Matt. Sas Petherick [00:38:47]: And he was like, are you well, you look well. What's happening? You know, he. He's very kind of, like, holistic in his approach. I really like him. And I said, yeah, you know. You know how I said it my last 6 months ago checkup, that I was gonna go back to the gym, and you said that that was safe to do. And we're all. We're all good about it, but with those restrictions. Sas Petherick [00:39:07]: Well, I went. And at that time, I had lost, like, seven kilos, which is close. Seven, eight kilos, close to 20 pounds. And he said, oh, interesting. That's a fantastic. Keep at it. You seem really well. And then he gave me the results of all the tests that I'd had done in the preceding hour. Sas Petherick [00:39:27]: And. And I have been taking heart medication called Solitol, which helps regulate my heart rhythm because I have. It's so complicated and boring, but I have what's called afib and V fib. So my heart beats really, really fast and really, really slow. And I've got a pacemaker and lots of medication to try and keep it regulated. And I've always been an afib since I was 4 years old and I had my first open heart surgery to repair a defect. And he said, oh, well, according to your ecg, you're out of afib. And then he went on to talk about something, and I'm like, whoa, back up the truck, Matt. Sas Petherick [00:40:08]: What do you mean I'm out of afib? And he's like, oh, well, it looks like the solitol is doing its job. And, yeah, like, your heart rhythm for afib, it's regular. That's great, great news. I'm so glad the medication is working. And I'm like, okay, cool. And I kind of was like. I said, that's really a good thing, isn't it? And he goes, yeah, it's A great thing. It's really cool. Sas Petherick [00:40:32]: It means your heart is back to a normal rhythm when it comes to, like, going really fast. And I'm like, yeah, great. And I got in the car after my appointment, and I was like, hang on. He's giving all the credit to this medication that I've been on for four years, just by the way. Ali Shapiro [00:40:52]: Right. Sas Petherick [00:40:54]: The only thing that has changed in the last six months, the only thing that has changed is that I am stronger, healthier, more, you know, nourished. Like, you can't tell me that those things aren't correlated in some way. But he was like, yeah, the Solar 12 is doing its work. And I was like, dude, okay, sure. But I found that quite fascinating that he didn't think your baseline health is radically improved. Ali Shapiro [00:41:29]: Yeah. It's more than just the medication. Sas Petherick [00:41:34]: I just found that fascinating that actually someone with his medical background, which is different from our health background. Right. But I still was like, oh, wow, you're giving me absolutely no credit for that. You are convinced it's the medication. And it was like light bulbs going off for me. Like, oh, that's how you make sense of the world. It's like, if you've got any friends that are lawyers. Right. Sas Petherick [00:41:56]: They make sense of the world through risk management. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. And it was fascinating to me, and I thought, oh, okay, cool. You won't be able to answer some of my questions, you know, like. Because you don't. Because your lens on the world is kind of refined and pointing in a specific direction. Yes. Ali Shapiro [00:42:18]: Yeah. That is amazing. You did not tell me that. Sass. Sas Petherick [00:42:21]: Yeah, it's cool, right? Ali Shapiro [00:42:24]: It's so cool. And it's. Again, this is part of complexity. Fitness is holding the. And, Right. Like, you know, and I think that's part of the problem in wellness right now. Right. Like, wellness was kind of this initial reaction against healthcare, but then it's gone down this, like, completely. Ali Shapiro [00:42:39]: Like, you can't use anything Western, you know? And it's like, when I was at my breast biopsy today, I was like, oh, my God. Like, I'm so glad I've taken great care of myself. And I can also hold that like the grim reaper. You just sometimes don't know. Right. I mean, that's what I was thinking. Like, I feel like I'm trying to know. You never know. Ali Shapiro [00:42:55]: So it's like trying to hold the compassion of, like, you do what you can and you may not know, but I think that really not knowing that fear earpiece takes people into either side. Like, I'M either dependent and listening to my doctors no matter what, or I'm gonna not use the system. And it's, I can control everything. And it's like, that's usually not either. Sas Petherick [00:43:17]: Both extremes. There's no way I'm. I do not have a goal to get off my medication like that, you know, like, I am so grateful to western medicine that has saved my life multiple times. Right. It is the both end. It's like, you guys do your job, I'm gonna do my job. Ali Shapiro [00:43:36]: Yeah. One of my clients, who's a nurse practitioner and pretty holistic minded like me, she's like, why can't we, why can't everyone just use the best of whatever there is? I'm like, great question. Sas Petherick [00:43:46]: Like, well, I wonder if. Ellie, it's. We want, we want the answer because that helps us feel safe. Ali Shapiro [00:43:54]: Yes. It has to be more simple so that I just know I'm doing my part, whatever it is. One thing I want to circle back to is your, your point about meaning. Because, you know, there have been studies that show that when we think of biomarkers, like, how do we know someone's healthy? That they've tested people who are doing things that are meaningful but hard. Right. Like I would say you and I are in a fun time with our businesses, but I would say, like, it was a, it was hard work to get, I think, where we both are developing the mastery, then learning how to be a business owner. Then like, you know, our, our industry's going through changes versus people who. They called it the like, hedonic head treadmill. Ali Shapiro [00:44:32]: Right? Who were just kind of, I'm just aiming for happiness. I'm aiming for happiness. So even the people who, so the people who were under more stress, but they're stressful, meaningful, had healthier biomarkers. And so it's such an important piece. And I think what you were talking about in terms of even the business changes you've made, you're making and, and, you know, willing to be quote unquote, high maintenance and all these things, which deepens your connection with the right people. Right. It deepens your belonging. But I think what happens is culture says, okay, once you lose weight, that's how you're going to get to do everything that you want to do that is meaningful. Ali Shapiro [00:45:12]: Right. Like, that's kind of the promise of weight loss. Right? Once, once I do this, this is how I used to think, once I do this, then I'm going to meet someone. Once I do this, then I'm going to figure out my career because I hate corporate, but somehow weight loss is going to figure this out for me. Right. It's the easy button out of all this complexity. So you said you don't even have a weight loss goal anymore. And so, like, how has. Ali Shapiro [00:45:32]: And I know that you were content with your body coming into this, but how have you held that goal so loosely? But then you're still tracking and. And willing to try these new behaviors. That is just a practice of meeting your needs. So I would love to hear. And I think people listening don't want to care about their weight, but they do. And I have, you know, my ideas of why that is, but I would love to hear your process. Sas Petherick [00:45:57]: So I have a rough idea, like, just in terms of, like, when I've lost weight. In the past, there's been a kind of number that has felt really good, and I've. And I've sort of. Sort of thought, oh, yeah, I'm nearly there, you know, So I. I'm not going to say, oh, I have no idea. Like, I have a rough idea of. And I think I'm about halfway. Like, that's kind of. Sas Petherick [00:46:18]: Kind of where I'm at now. Ali Shapiro [00:46:19]: That's amazing, because the people are going to want to know. Sas Petherick [00:46:21]: Yeah. So I started at just over a hundred kilos, and I'm now hovering at 89. So I've lost just over 10 kilos, which is about 23, 24 pounds. Ali Shapiro [00:46:33]: That's amazing. Congratulations. Sas Petherick [00:46:36]: Thank you. Yeah. But the thing I'm doing. And Ash is also on a real kind of like, you know, we're both prioritizing health and, well, wellness right now. And I was saying to him, like, the last 10 days, I've kind of hovered over this marker of like, 89, 90. Like, I kind of go up and then I go down. And I'm also kind of like, my cycle is for the first time in my adult life this month, I'm now at, like, 34 days of a cycle. So I'm just, like, waiting for my bleed to start, which I'm like, am I done? Like, is that. Sas Petherick [00:47:15]: Cause I've been praying for a very simple menopause because I can't take HRT because it's contraindicated with all my heart medication. So I'm like, oh, maybe I'm done now that I've said this. As soon as we finish. Yeah. But so all to say, like, getting fixated on one measurement is a really like. Like, that's the road to hell, I think. So one of the things I've really noticed is my coach gets me to take photos every month and measure my body, right? And because she's like, weight sometimes is really weird. Like, you can't even. Sas Petherick [00:47:53]: Like, you might lose maybe one kilo, but the way that it proportionately is lost through your body, which is something we can't control, actually changes how your body looks. And I am stunned by how different my body looks. Like, I shared some photos with you guys, and I was like, isn't this. I even stand differently. Like, my first photos, I'm a little bit hunched, and I'm kind of apologetic. And then in my latest photos, I'm like, yeah, bitches, check this out. Ali Shapiro [00:48:26]: I'm back. Sas Petherick [00:48:28]: Yeah. So it feels to me like the. So the weight loss goal. Like, I also know my body is never going to be static. Like, I could weigh myself 10 times in 10 minutes and I would have a different number because your body is such a dynamic, alive thing, right? So I'm like, I've got a kind of rough idea of where I want to get to, but I'm also interested in, like, what did I eat today? How am I feeling? Am I, you know, like, feeling like, you know, where's my vitality measure? Ali Shapiro [00:49:03]: How. Sas Petherick [00:49:04]: How much sleep did I get? Am I proud of how I managed a trickier situation? You know, telling restaurateur. And I actually, I asked for the sauce on the side. Can you take it back and give me one with the sauce on the side? And you see the server go high maintenance, which six months ago would have made me go, oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that I want the sauce on the side. Don't worry about it. Leave the plate. Oh, my God, can we just be friends? Right? And now I'm like, no, I can't ask for that, dude. Like, it's okay. Sas Petherick [00:49:34]: You've got one job. It'll be. We'll all survive this. You know, there are just more measures that I'm bringing in to determine. Like, how's this going? What's feeling good here? Ali Shapiro [00:49:49]: I think what you're saying is a couple things. Like, you're sussing out the noise from the signal, right? So when people. Some people weigh themselves every day, I. I don't recommend that. Sas Petherick [00:50:00]: I do, by the way. Ali Shapiro [00:50:02]: Oh, you do? Okay. Yeah. Everyone has to find what works for them. But what you're. What you're looking for is an overall trend of, am I going in the direction I want? Instead of, like, the noise of, like, you know, everyone weighs more right before their period. Right? It's like. And so that's kind of what you're saying. But what you're also realizing to me is in playing the long game, right, like, everybody, when you're motivated by shame and guilt and fear that your body is stopping you from doing the things that you want to do, you really just want it to go fast, but you miss all the learning of what you're talking about right now. Ali Shapiro [00:50:36]: Right? And so to me, what I'm hearing is like, I'm playing the long game. This is all research. I'm checking in with myself. I'm enjoying the process. So it's gonna happen because the signal is showing me I have real data. I'm not into magical thinking. But you keep. I love that you keep using this word nourished. Ali Shapiro [00:50:55]: And it's like, it's easy to sustain this, which is why I trust it's gonna happen. Because you're looking for holistic nourishment, though. It's not just what you ate, but, like, I'm measuring that. Like, six months ago, I would have told the. The waiter, you know, let's just be friends, and I'm gonna. And we'll chat over this, like, saucy meal, right? And you're like, now I'm like, no, this. Your job is to serve me. Right? Obviously. Ali Shapiro [00:51:21]: Not being an asshole, but it's just your. Your metrics are shifting, and I think they're so. And. And that. We talk about that in my work all the time. Like, what are you measuring? Right? And you're looking. You understand, this is a holistic growth process. So it's. Ali Shapiro [00:51:37]: That's what I'm hearing. And that's how you start to realize that contentment, satisfaction isn't coming once you lose weight. It's available. Sas Petherick [00:51:47]: It's available right now. Right now. Ali Shapiro [00:51:49]: Yeah. Sas Petherick [00:51:50]: You know, and when I first started working with my coach, Sarah, she said to me, you know, honey, this is probably gonna take a year. Ali Shapiro [00:51:57]: Yeah. Oh, my God. She's like, the real deal. Sas Petherick [00:52:00]: I can remember feeling so, like, relaxed when she said that. Like, that feels so spacious to me. I've got a whole year, you know? A whole year. And so I kind of am, like, sweet. Am I where I kind of want to be at this stage of things? Yeah. You know, so I think I love that phrase of the signal from the noise, because the noise is fast is better, right? And more weight loss is better. And I actually, you know, one of the things we talk about is the difference between fat loss and weight loss and all of those things, you know, so, you know, and also, like, I think we've mashed up exercise and food as a kind of, like, zero sum game. And, you know, people say, oh, well, I've eaten this, so I've gotta walk this far, like, all of that stuff. Sas Petherick [00:52:59]: And one of the things that Sarah has helped me to do is to really separate those things. Right? So my fat loss is coming from what happens in the kitchen. My fat loss and my kind of losing the weight that I want to lose, that's coming from nutrition, right? The building of the body, the building of muscle and strength, and all of that, that happens in the gym. Those two things are not. They are correlated. They're happening in the same kind of physical site. But we're very clear that my body fat reduces. My muscle tone will be more obvious. Ali Shapiro [00:53:44]: Well, and this comes back to, right, like, defining health as thinness. We all learn that exercise is then punishment. And you're saying, I'm can. I'm making the meaning. And actually, the episode after this on Insatiable, that will run as. I'm talking about the flexibility of making movement. Because to age well, lose weight, be healthy, you have to find a way to move that is enjoyable. It's just. Ali Shapiro [00:54:06]: It's one of the biggest indicators of longevity and contentment. And it's like, oh, we've just been taught that it's about calories and losing weight, and then you miss out on noticing how it helps you more feel more relaxed, more able to ask that server that. Sas Petherick [00:54:21]: And it's. I think it's the thing that, you know, you don't have to do any cardio to lose body fat, but. But it's a good thing to do for your body, right? Like, it's. It's great. There's so much, you know, like, don't make it punishment. Like, make it joyous, like. Cause it feels good to move your body, right? Like, that's. I think that's the. Sas Petherick [00:54:44]: The lesson I'm learning. It's like, yeah, but are you having fun yet? You know? Ali Shapiro [00:54:47]: Yeah. Yeah, totally. As you get closer and closer to your goal weight, I. I think people are curious, like, and you're still doing this calorie deficit. Like, are you still feeling satiated? Are you still feeling nourished? I want people to know that. Yes. Sas Petherick [00:55:03]: Yes. And I think that was one of the things that I. Cause I remember in an earlier episode, I said, you know, how horrified I was that I had a 1700 calorie, like, daily kind of amount to play with. And that terrified me because I have been conditioned to believe that lower is better. And Sarah's like, no, we want you to eat as much food as you can in your deficit. Ali Shapiro [00:55:29]: Yeah. Sas Petherick [00:55:30]: So I want you hitting that number all the time, you know, and so I think there's something for me about this is not about deprivation. And when you have a kind of macro split, then you get to see, oh, you know, why I am obsessed with, like, spinach and, you know, eating, like, greens, broccoli, all of that stuff. It's because a. That gets my fiber target in. But also it's like, freaking bonus calories. It's bonus food. Like, there's hardly any calories. I'm like, don't even want to count the broccoli. Sas Petherick [00:56:08]: You know, it doesn't. 17. Ooh. Try harder, mate. You know, it's like, do you know what I mean? So you start to kind of go, oh, how much food. Food can I have to be nourished and fitted in this. This little container that I've got to play with each day? Like, that is a total headspin for me. Ali Shapiro [00:56:30]: Yeah. And that's why I, you know, I just had Elise Loonan on the podcast last week, and we were talking about her book. And. And I said, I think so many people, like, the reaction to body positivity was in. Well, I mean, how it started is not. But how it's going is in reaction to diet culture. And I said, it's part of the binary socialized mind thinking. Right. Ali Shapiro [00:56:54]: And. But it's rested on the belief that weight loss is damaging. Right. And. And it can be, but I'm like, in my model, it's like, how can weight loss repair and nurture your relationship with yourself? And I told her how, like, most people, most women are not eating enough. They're not nourished enough. And so, like, look, I wish weight loss wasn't a thing, but it is. And if this is the optimal conflict. Ali Shapiro [00:57:15]: Right. In developmental psych that is going to make people pay attention to that they're not getting the nourishment they need. But it's so hard for people to believe that they can. That like, that they don't have to be hungry to be healthy or lose weight. Like, it's just. But it's rested in that belief that. Sas Petherick [00:57:33]: This has to stop. And I think this is why I want to. I'm so happy to share this experience in this more public way and have these conversations with you, Ali, is because you get that, like, they're in a way that I think so. Because don't get me wrong, like, the health and fitness industry is not really about health and fitness, right? Like it's totally sucked into that model of thinness and stuff. It's just packaged in a slightly different way now, right? It's all about your protein and blah, blah. But I think there's something about seeing this as like, for me, when I think about Elise's book and you know, the seven deadly sins, right, and how we've been socialized and all this, I'm like, gluttony. I've always felt like I need to tone down my appetites for life. I've always felt that was a sin I couldn't really honour, you know, that was a sin. Sas Petherick [00:58:35]: And now I'm just like, fuck yeah, bring it. I am a hungry woman. I am hungry for life. You know, I'm hungry for experience, for depth, for life. Like I want to end my life feeling like Andrea Gibson, R.I.P. you know, that I've got stretch marks all over me because I was so alive. And so there is an embracing of that where that gluttony and that hunger, that insatiability, like honoring that is so like now part of my blueprint. Ali Shapiro [00:59:17]: Well, and again, when you can honor it holistically, it doesn't come out in the food, right? I mean, that's my whole work and that's my last question for you because I know and again, this is what I do in my work and so I get it, but I think the people will want to know. You said like, oh, you know, my friend had suggested this restaurant and I was like, no, but I'm still working out that anxiety, right? Or like how. What can you say to people about your own discovery? Because I think, I mean, I know you're very self aware and I love how researched you are and like you've had ideas about needs and emotions, you know, before this. But I think food, because of its relationship to belonging and attachment is like the deepest layer of this. So what are you working through now so that you're not turning to food and you're not, not honoring what you need about, like in this current stage, I still need, you know, I'm tracking, I'm doing this. What, what's your edge around that? Sas Petherick [01:00:17]: So to me, this, and this is so fascinating cause I have this coaching methodology that I've developed which is made up of self belief, self acceptance, self worth and self trust. And I'm like, these are like core resources within us that when they are fully expressed, our self doubt doesn't have to work. Not Nearly as hard, right? And there's lots of ways in and you know, know, how do we know we have these qualities? How do we know these resources are well defined? For me, self acceptance has always been the trickiest one, you know, and for me, that's about belonging to yourself so that you can connect with others, with the world, with God, with whatever. Right. But it is also, I think the way in is to pay attention to your needs and emotions. So for me, self acceptance has a real kind of watery quality. Like each of the four compass points have an element. And for me, self acceptance is water because it's always moving. Sas Petherick [01:01:21]: Your needs, your emotions are always moving. And the kind of trick, if you like, or the way to build that resource is to be in relationship with yourself. So your needs, your emotions, all the parts of you, your history, your future, like all of that is part of self acceptance. And so what I'm noticing is when I have some anxiety around, oh, am I gonna have to have a difficult conversation? Am I gonna disappoint someone? Which has always been my kryptonite, Am I going to annoy somebody or have a conversation that inconveniences another person? Because I'm trying to take care of what I need. Like, what I'm always trying to come back to is like, okay, honey, how does that feel? You know, it's like, oh, that feels a bit crunchy. That feels a bit. Oh, I just want to get through it, like, or I want to dismiss my needs to make the other person feel okay. So part of my job, I think is to like, just pay attention, like, what are you feeling? What do you need right now? So that I'm responding to that need rather than what I probably would have often done is dismiss the need and then try to comfort myself for how shitty it felt. Sas Petherick [01:02:46]: And the comfort was inevitably food. Does that make sense? So it's like, it's kind of like interrupting that desire to comfort myself or with food at a kind of superficial level, which never quite touches the actual need. Now I'm trying to practice, you know, really paying attention to what, what is it that is happening here? And often what I found, which I think is so fascinating, is that it actually feels like quite a younger part of me wants to be comforted. And so, you know, it's like, oh, she was mean. I want something sweet. You know, it's that kind of like 8 year old me that's. And I think, oh, yeah, because when I was that age, like, no one really cared, you know, there was no belonging no, there wasn't much belonging and my emotions were. I was always told, you know, too much. Sas Petherick [01:03:42]: And I had too many needs, too many feelings. And so they were often kind of laughed at. And it kind of, you know, humour is a big part of our family. So, you know, it was a sort of like, oh, here she goes again. Or, you know, there was a gentle ribbing to it. But it was the 80s, different time. We didn't know about trauma back then, we just created it. So I think there is some, like, level of real healing that's going on. Sas Petherick [01:04:12]: Every time these, like, little challenges pop up, inevitably it's like, oh, it's an invitation. How do I want to respond to this? You know, And I think just having that ability to pause and really think about, what am I gonna do here? Because I'm at a choice point, you know, and I think anyone who's on a, you know, a weight loss journey will know you're constantly at choice points, you know, Do I. You know, there's a bag of Doritos and a Netflix special. I'm at a choice point, you know? Cause that would feel amazing, right? We all know how cozy that feels when you're sinking into some great tally and you just get to consume that artistry and be entertained. And, ooh, I've always had a bag of Doritos at my side while I've been doing that, because that's kind of my little ritual. So sometimes it can feel like something's missing when we interrupt that and go, actually, I'm not hungry, I'm not gonna do that. Like, I'm interrupting that ritual. Sometimes we can feel like we're missing out on something when actually it's about, oh, can I just be entertained without having to give myself that extra thing? Ali Shapiro [01:05:27]: And I think for everyone listening, you know, I think the key to noticing is actually dropping into your body and not thinking. Like, when you have the food noise, I shouldn't eat this, I should eat that. Like, I always tell my clients, this is a. This is a signal that there's needs that are not being met. And so you. You're going to get that insight in your body and. And not the more you try to think it through your head. The head's going to do what the head does, which is intellectually spin out. Ali Shapiro [01:05:52]: And the answer is not there. It is in that, like, as Sass said, those younger parts of us or the parts of ourselves that, like, we have to get reacquainted with, right? Like, we have to and learn how to I think that's the biggest discovery when you talk about. It's not about restriction. It's like on an emotional level. It's about how do we really take care and support ourselves when we're struggling. Right. Like, to me, that's been what the real journey of food is. It's not about restricting care. Ali Shapiro [01:06:21]: It's about. Sas Petherick [01:06:22]: No, it's actually about doubling it down on the care. It just comes in a different form. Ali Shapiro [01:06:28]: Yes, yes, yes. So, Sass, thank you so much. Do you have anything else you want to tell people before we meet again? We're going to do two more episodes, you know. Sas Petherick [01:06:39]: Yeah. I'm so. I'm about halfway. And what I would say is it feels like I'm on the downward stretch, you know? Like, I think. I think that's the thing. Like when Sarah said to me, it's going to probably be a year, I'm six months out and I'm about halfway. And it's like, oh, the hard bits. The really hard bit's over. Ali Shapiro [01:07:04]: Yes. I just wrapped up my truths with Food Group and one of the clients was like, I just want more of this. And I was like, that's where you want to be. It's the downward. It's when you do it in a sustainable, holistic way, it. You're not sisyphened. Right. You're rather trying to push the ball boulder up the hill. Ali Shapiro [01:07:23]: Cause you're hungry and deprived and you haven't tuned into your needs. Sas Petherick [01:07:27]: You're actually. Yeah. You're kind of the opposite of Sisyphus because you're like letting the boulder go as you go up the hill. You know, at some point you reach the top and you're like, oh, I don't have to be huberman and punish myself. I can just let this thing go and come down the other side. Ali Shapiro [01:07:46]: Yes. Sas Petherick [01:07:47]: There's no pleasure in punishing yourself. No. No wonder none of us stick to it. Like, dives just don't work. Right. But can you find the joy and the nourishment and the pleasure of living a fuller life then that, I think, is where the real beauty of this kind of work. That's where it lies. Ali Shapiro [01:08:11]: Yes. Thank you so much, Sass. We'll check in in about three months and then three months after that. Sas Petherick [01:08:19]: How late? See you on the other side. Ali Shapiro [01:08:22]: Yes. And we will have all your links. But do you want to let people know where they can find more of you? Sas Petherick [01:08:26]: Well, you can't right now because I am radically changing my practice. But I am going to be coming back onto Instagram next week. So check me out asbethrick on Instagram. I'm sure Ally will tag me. Ali Shapiro [01:08:42]: Yes. Thank you so much, Sass, for being you and letting us into this journey, because these are the conversations we, I think we need to be having, so thank you.
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